Did the tower of babal really happen?

[AmericanChristian91]

I was in a discussion with some Christians today, and we were talking about the tower of babal, though all of them completely believed it actually happened, i wasn't so sure on whether the story is factually historical truth.

I am skeptical to the idea that at one time when humans first had a language, all of humanity existed together at that time. Hasn't there been evidence that humanity already spread out of Africa, in different areas and had different languages before the supposed date of the tower of babel (correct me if im wrong though)? I also think there has been evidence of ancient societies that existed that did not have some language. So it casts doubt for me on whether all of humanity had/spoke the same language.

So i want your opinions on this.

Is the tower of babal historically accurate, was it meant to be a story that actually took place? Or is it instead meant/designed to be a metaphor/allegory?

Your thoughts?

 

[joeboonda]

I think it did happen. We know human civilization began in the area of the Mid East/North Africa...so the plain in the land of Shinar in Iraq is reasonable, especially with all the evidence of ziggurats. Going back that far in time I don't think anyone can make assumptions of exactly when the different languages came to be. Anyway I take it as literal where the Bible is literal and figurative where it plainly is. That's another topic but good to study good methods of interpretation. So, mainly, God told them to spread across the earth and multiply but instead they came together and worshiped the creation and tried to build this tower to Heaven, perhaps in defiance of their Creator. So God scattered them and confused their tongues. I believe that in the end times, the Antichrist, like Nimrod, will bring the world together again to defy God, and if not for the Lord's return, as God said, nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. Just some thots.

 

[miamited]

yes

 

[Papias]

Languages developed more than once, on different continents, and did so long before the 4,000 years ago or or so described by a literal reading of Genesis.

The Genesis story of the tower of babel is a veiled political attack on the ziggurats of babylon (babel = babyl). It's not any more literal history than Jesus' parable of the sower.

The oldest written languages appear independantly, around or before 5,000 years ago, and of course spoken language is much older.

Add to that the fact that humans moved out of Africa well before 60,000 years ago, and into the Americas well before 20,000 years ago, etc. Here is a map of when and where humans spread from Africa (note the dates given by the color coding).

In Eurasia, here is the estimated language tree (note the dates, in red, which are long before 4,000 years ago).

Here is one for South America:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Mayan_Language_Tree_in_colour.png
( I removed it to solve the screen issue - you can still see it by clicking the link)

Papias

 

[ChetSinger]

I was in a discussion with some Christians today, and we were talking about the tower of babal, though all of them completely believed it actually happened, i wasn't so sure on whether the story is factually historical truth.

I am skeptical to the idea that at one time when humans first had a language, all of humanity existed together at that time. Hasn't there been evidence that humanity already spread out of Africa, in different areas and had different languages before the supposed date of the tower of babel (correct me if im wrong though)? I also think there has been evidence of ancient societies that existed that did not have some language. So it casts doubt for me on whether all of humanity had/spoke the same language.

So i want your opinions on this.

Is the tower of babal historically accurate, was it meant to be a story that actually took place? Or is it instead meant/designed to be a metaphor/allegory?

Your thoughts?

Yes. Mankind was split into 70 nations. And as described in Deut 32:7-8, the Targums, and Ugaritic beliefs, each nation had an angelic supervisor placed over it. God then created the 71st nation, called Israel, which was his personal nation and from whom the Messiah would come.

When Jesus rose from the dead he reclaimed all of the nations for himself, saying "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me".

This is considered history by the ancients.

 

[Calminian]

I was in a discussion with some Christians today, and we were talking about the tower of babal, though all of them completely believed it actually happened, i wasn't so sure on whether the story is factually historical truth.

I am skeptical to the idea that at one time when humans first had a language, all of humanity existed together at that time. Hasn't there been evidence that humanity already spread out of Africa, in different areas and had different languages before the supposed date of the tower of babel (correct me if im wrong though)? I also think there has been evidence of ancient societies that existed that did not have some language. So it casts doubt for me on whether all of humanity had/spoke the same language.

So i want your opinions on this.

Is the tower of babal historically accurate, was it meant to be a story that actually took place? Or is it instead meant/designed to be a metaphor/allegory?

Your thoughts?

I still don't understand why your first instinct is to doubt the word of God. Why do you think this things would be too hard for God? Or is it that these things cause problems for other beliefs you have about the earth's origins?

 

[juvenissun]

I was in a discussion with some Christians today, and we were talking about the tower of babal, though all of them completely believed it actually happened, i wasn't so sure on whether the story is factually historical truth.

I am skeptical to the idea that at one time when humans first had a language, all of humanity existed together at that time. Hasn't there been evidence that humanity already spread out of Africa, in different areas and had different languages before the supposed date of the tower of babel (correct me if im wrong though)? I also think there has been evidence of ancient societies that existed that did not have some language. So it casts doubt for me on whether all of humanity had/spoke the same language.

So i want your opinions on this.

Is the tower of babal historically accurate, was it meant to be a story that actually took place? Or is it instead meant/designed to be a metaphor/allegory?

Your thoughts?

[how did you make this page so wide?]

Think it this way: The material civilization did not get any breakthrough until we can translate languages at ease. Once we get that part done, then our knowledge started to accumulate REAL FAST. Today, we have a more unified language than ever: computer language.

You tell me, what can we NOT do now? We can create life by cloning today. Are we functioning more like a god now?

 

[AmericanChristian91]

[how did you make this page so wide?]

Think it this way: The material civilization did not get any breakthrough until we can translate languages at ease. Once we get that part done, then our knowledge started to accumulate REAL FAST. Today, we have a more unified language than ever: computer language.

You tell me, what can we NOT do now? We can create life by cloning today. Are we functioning more like a god now?

Many people are trying to be more like god then earlier humanity did.

So what is your view on whether the tower of babel is historical or not?

By the way, i don't think the whole page being so wide is my fault, it wasn't like that when i created this topic, and the problem is happening on my comp. to. This has happened before to me.

 

[AmericanChristian91]

Why do you think this things would be too hard for God?

It's not. God has the power, he could have done exactly what happened in the tower of babel story. Just like God has the power to create the universe and earth in 6 24 hour days, or even 1 second (though that doesn't mean he did do it like that).

Evidence seems to point that the tower of babel isn't historically truth since Man existed in several areas, before the dawn of language, and when language was formed, it happened in several areas.

Remember im not saying God couldn't do it, or its to hard for him, nothing is to hard for God to do.

 

[Calminian]

...Evidence seems to point that the tower of babel isn't historically truth since Man existed in several areas, before the dawn of language, and when language was formed, it happened in several areas.

Why don't you consider God's word evidence?

He said He did it. You don't believe Him. Why? What evidence from men are you trusting over God's word?

 

[EternalDragon]

Languages developed more than once, on different continents, and did so long before the 4,000 years ago or or so described by a literal reading of Genesis.

The Genesis story of the tower of babel is a veiled political attack on the ziggurats of babylon (babel = babyl). It's not any more literal history than Jesus' parable of the sower.

The oldest written languages appear independantly, around or before 5,000 years ago, and of course spoken language is much older.

Add to that the fact that humans moved out of Africa well before 60,000 years ago, and into the Americas well before 20,000 years ago, etc. Here is a map of when and where humans spread from Africa (note the dates given by the color coding).

Your dates are a bit off. You are going by man made dating I think. There is no 60,000 years ago. At that time the entire universe did not exist.

 

[AmericanChristian91]

Your dates are a bit off. You are going by man made dating I think. There is no 60,000 years ago. At that time the entire universe did not exist.

You know, the whole "the earth is very young" is man made to.

 

[juvenissun]

Many people are trying to be more like god then earlier humanity did.

So what is your view on whether the tower of babel is historical or not?

By the way, i don't think the whole page being so wide is my fault, it wasn't like that when i created this topic, and the problem is happening on my comp. to. This has happened before to me.

Why are many (all?) ancient civilizations characterized by the building of pyramidal tower?

The Babel Tower does not need to be high. But it represents something which is hard to build, but is made possible by the cooperation of people. Today, it could be something like the space station.

We are building a Tower of Babel today (e.g. the new world trading center at NY?).

 

[mindlight]

I was in a discussion with some Christians today, and we were talking about the tower of babal, though all of them completely believed it actually happened, i wasn't so sure on whether the story is factually historical truth.

I am skeptical to the idea that at one time when humans first had a language, all of humanity existed together at that time. Hasn't there been evidence that humanity already spread out of Africa, in different areas and had different languages before the supposed date of the tower of babel (correct me if im wrong though)? I also think there has been evidence of ancient societies that existed that did not have some language. So it casts doubt for me on whether all of humanity had/spoke the same language.

So i want your opinions on this.

Is the tower of babal historically accurate, was it meant to be a story that actually took place? Or is it instead meant/designed to be a metaphor/allegory?

Your thoughts?

There is actually very little evidence of anything like proper civilisations before about the time in which the Tower of Babel story would have taken place. People have hypothesised dates before about 2500 bc but there is considerable room for error in these hypotheses. The Egyptians for example would rewrite their histories with every dynasty and were compulsive liars about history in reality.

Ideas like that of out of Africa (or the Chinese version - Peking man) are based on various human looking fossils that map with the macro-evolutionary theories about common ancestry and according to that theory suggest that the earliest ancestors of humanity came from certain places where the early versions of these fossils mapping to the oldest ancestors on the tree are more likely to be found. Of course if one explains the fossil record in terms of the accelerated and massively disruptive effects of a global flood then all of these evolutionary theories go out the window and the fossils being discussed could be degraded or warped human ones or examples of lost pre flood biodiversity of human like animals. They therefore do not really explain anything in a Creationist view.

Regarding a common language being the original default that fits the bible account very well. Noah and his sons probably spoke the same language and the ark came to ground in the area. The attempt to build a tower that reached to the heavens is both an attempt to unite mankind in one imperial humanist system and also an act of defiance against God. If they built high enough then their heads would always be above the flood waters of Gods judgment.

God frustrated the plan in accordance with his creation mandate which told man to go forth and multiple and to fill the earth. By fragmenting the languages this became possible and indeed gave new reasons for it to happen. It was only at Pentecost that God began to reverse this global curse as he brought all nations together by His Holy Spirit into the catholic church that now embraces the planet and has people in every nation of the earth.

 

[AmericanChristian91]

We are building a Tower of Babel today (e.g. the new world trading center at NY?).

I don't see the nWTC as a tower of babel, just because tall buildings are made doesn't necessarily mean they are tower of babels.

Why do you think the nWTC could be one?

 

[juvenissun]

I don't see the nWTC as a tower of babel, just because tall buildings are made doesn't necessarily mean they are tower of babels.

Why do you think the nWTC could be one?

If so, how do we know what kind of building would be qualified for that?

 

[ChetSinger]

I was in a discussion with some Christians today, and we were talking about the tower of babal, though all of them completely believed it actually happened, i wasn't so sure on whether the story is factually historical truth.

There's a candidate for the tower of Babel in ancient history. It's a partially-completed ziggurat that Nebuchadnezzar restored. He said it dated from an ancient time, from a people who left no records of themselves, and that the top was unfinished. He finished it but it fell into disrepair again. Later, Alexander the Great passed through and gave orders for it to be reconstructed yet again. Eventually dissatisfied with the progress, Alexander ordered it razed.

Tower of Babel

 

[Papias]

Am. Sol. wrote:

By the way, i don't think the whole page being so wide is my fault, it wasn't like that when i created this topic, and the problem is happening on my comp. to. This has happened before to me.

The wide page thing is my fault, due to posting a wide image (one of the language trees).

It cracks me up how many posts here are simple bare assertions, easily seen to be wrong, with no supporting information. I wonder if those posters really expect we'll just believe them, for no reason beyond their own personal aura of blinding awesomeness?

Some examples:

• There is no 60,000 years ago. At that time the entire universe did not exist.
• There is actually very little evidence of anything like proper civilisations before about the time in which the Tower of Babel story would have taken place.
• People have hypothesised dates before about 2500 bc but there is considerable room for error in these hypotheses.
• The Egyptians for example would rewrite their histories with every dynasty and were compulsive liars about history in reality.
• the fossils being discussed could be degraded or warped human ones or examples of lost pre flood biodiversity of human like animals.

Wrt civilisations, they actual evidence shows that many different civilzations developed at different times, many of which were before a time feasible from the flood. A literal reading puts the flood at around 2350 BC. Since 6 people can't build a tower, it would take many centuries to go from there to a population able to take on such a project. While 800 is surely too short, even that conservative number says that any civilization prior to 1600 BC shows problems for the floodists.

Here are some dates, many of which are before 1600 BC:

Some Ancient Civilizations | Infoplease.com


Chetsinger wrote:

There's a candidate for the tower of Babel in ancient history.

Kudos for citing a source!

Overall, however, I'd be careful there. That source looks pretty credulous, with all kinds of stuff I think we can all agree is kooky, such as alien abductions, pseudoscience, bigotry, etc.


Papias

 

[Lulav]

This post is the reason for the spread and makes it hard to read. Usually I make a thumbnail of it so it doesn't cause problems for the readers.

I can't read all the posts for this reason so I apologize if this has already been said.

When looking at the dates for the flood, it is estimated that only 100 years passed when the confusion of tongues happened.

Now we must remember that the earth (the land) was still in one whole pieces at the time. I believe that G-d further divided the people to keep them
from becoming one and rebelling against him by not only separating them by language, but also by space. Therefore we see that in the days of
Peleg the earth separated. This is when the continents were 'formed'.

Thus those who moved 'south' would be in Africa and civilization rose up there.

Now by some figures the dispersion of languages happened in 2247 bce and it just so happened that Peleg was born the same year. We are told he lived
to be 239 years old so the break up of the continents happened between 2247-2008bce.

The ancient civilizations that we know of all seem to appear on the scene around the same time in various parts of the world but all centralized
around Iraq/cradle of civilization.

As far as being able to tell today things that we read about in the beginnings of Genesis, it is hard for many reasons that must be taken into consideration.

The tower of Babel is historic and tells us briefly of the first rebellion of mankind as a whole against G-d. This is said to happen once again in the
future and things are almost all in place for them to happen right now.

In Europe, now called the European UNION, the EU building was purposely designed to not only emulate the tower of Babel but has graphics just
in case anyone missed the point. There is even a statue of a woman riding on a beast, prominently displayed.

The city of Strasbourg (France) is the official seat of the European Parliament.
The institution is legally bound to meet there twelve sessions
a year lasting about four days each. Other work takes place in Brussels and Luxembourg City

A EURO coin pictures the woman on a beast




and here is the statue outside the EU office in Brussels

There is another one too, the woman is named 'Europa' the beast, a bull is a
representation of the god Zeus. Europe is soon to have paper money printed with this. Right now they have introduced the newest bill
in the series called 'Europa'. This is the money of the woman on the beast.


And here is a poster from years ago when the new Tower of Babel was forming

Here is another statue of Europa riding the beast Zeus, notice the 'cherub' whispering in her ear?

Also notice that the bull seems to be 'riding' over the sea, notice the dolphins?

 

[HannibalFlavius]

Wow, That Parliament building really does look like that picture of the tower of Babel.