Did Jesus wear a prayer shawl (tallit)?

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LadyGarnetRose

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John 19:23, John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece.


Does making it larger make it easier to comprehend?
 
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IamGodslittlegirl

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ContraMundum:
What a dreadful botch up this is.

Try doing an analysis of the text cited, not another text. My goodness....you've been told so often thatthe words you are RANTING on about are too generalised ot be descriptive....and here, LGR gives you a description of the actual item in question (no, it is not named, but described in detail nonetheles) and you run back to words that mean "clothing" etc. Again, you're still trying to prove that Jesus wore clothing...well done...we know that....know what one garment looked like?...a Tallit!

:scratch: let's see if I understand this correctly - using a NT scripture to define the same text in the OT or vice versa is considered a botch job :eek:


Contra:
Sorry, but lady garnet hammered you, good and proper...and anything else just makes you look recalcitrant.

Shucks, I had to look up recalcitrant - I though you were complimenting old grannie or something, and I was like whoa ;) and then . . . yowzers :eek:


Perhaps you could be a bit more clear on what you mean by lady garnet "hammering" grannie good and proper - I think I missed that part.

What I see is a bunch of historical documentation and factual information being presented by old grannie that has yet to be solidly refuted from your side of the coin.


that reminds me, those were some pretty interesting notes on the greek/pagan coins [one side] used in the Temple first century. funny too, how the eagle symbol keeps popping up by cultures influenced by paganism :doh:
 
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IamGodslittlegirl

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John 19:23, John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece.


Does making it larger make it easier to comprehend?

I thought it would be fun to throw some more info into the ring. I am not a Greek scholar, nor a Hebrew one – but I think I can read the basic text and use a strong’s for defining words ;)


Joh 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat [g5509]: now the coat [5509] was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

Joh 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which said, They parted my raiment among them, and for my clothing they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.


Verse 24 points to fulfillment of scripture – that Jesus clothing will have lots cast for it. Verse 23 explains exactly what article of clothing is that they are casting lots for.

That article of clothing is specifically g5509.

g5509 = chiton [masculine noun]

1) a tunic, an undergarment, usually worn next to the skin, a garment, a vestment


uses of g5509 in the NT

Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats [g5509], neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Mar 6:9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats [5509].

Luk 3:11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats [g5509], let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

Luk 9:3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats [g5509] apiece.

[two tallitot??]

Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes [g5509], saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Do you really think the High Priest rent his tallit :confused: :swoon:
 
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torahgrandma

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So nice to see that you can count to six Lady. Now if you could attach some substantiated facts to those numbers, the forum would be much better informed. I will answer the first three, and if you would like, I will take the time to answer the others. (my….look at the time)

First off, SOME were Helenized not all.
But they all attended a temple that had THE ROMAN EAGLE (pagan symbol) flying at the entrance. The coins used in the temple had a roman god on one side. Some coins also had Aramaic on one side, and koine Greek on the other. The language of commerce was GREEK. Do you think that the Roman centurians spoke Hebrew and Aramaic? How about Pilate?

Second off, Yes in 5 BC Herod was King. In 4 BC Herod "Slayer of the innocents" was dead.
You need to brush up on the history of Judea. The Herod family had a dynasty that spanned many generations.

Herod the Great was the son of Antipater of Idumaea (Edom). Appointed king of Judaea B.C. 40. He is the one who commanded that all Jewish male children be killed after the birth of Christ. Since he was a descendant of Esau, and not of Jacob, then obviously he would not be defined as a “brother” by the standard of Torah.

Herod "Antipas", was the son of Herod the Great (Edomite) and Malthace (Samaritan) He cast John the Baptist into prison due to John's rebuke for his unlawful relationship with Herodias, his brothers wife. At her request, he ordered him beheaded. Probably not a “brother”.

Herod Agrippa I was the grandson of Herod the Great. I wonder if the scripture about the sins of the father and generations would apply here? His patri-lineal line was also from Edom. He also ordered that James son of Zebedee, to be put to death, and for Peter to be cast into prison. In
Acts 12 we are shown his spiritual nature:

21 And on a set day, having been clothed in a regal garment, and sitting on the tribunal, Herod made a speech to them.
22 And the mass of people cried out, The voice of a god, and not of a man!
23 And instantly an angel of the Lord struck him,
because he did not give the glory to God. And having been eaten by worms, his soul went out.

By the above passage, it is demonstrated that Herod did not worship the God of Israel, which would automatically disqualify him from the brother status according to the standards defined in the Torah.




Third off, the Essenes left about 68 AD NOT while Herod was still in power. The Essenes LEFT 2 years before the destruction of the Temple seeing what was to come.
Quote:
An earthquake severely damaged the buildings and mikva'ot of Qumran in 31 BCE. Excavations revealed cracks in walls and a thick layer of ash from a fire that had raged. The earthquake was mentioned by Josephus. (Antiquities 15, 121 ff.; Wars I, 370 ff.)
The settlement at Qumran was subsequently abandoned, until [FONT=&quot]the beginning of the 1st century CE[/FONT], when members of the community returned and settled there once more. They restored the earlier structures and, with various additions and modifications, used them. In the main building was a long room, in which remains of benches, or low tables, made of mud and plastered on the outside, as well as small clay inkwells were found. According to the excavator, these finds indicate that the room was a scriptorium, where the settlement's scribes copied the holy writings and the laws governing the community.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Archaeology/Qumran.html

Note:

The 1st century spanned from 1 to 100 ce according the Gregorian calendar. The beginning of the first century would not be 68 ce.



Contra said:
Sorry, but lady garnet hammered you, good and proper...and anything else just makes you look recalcitrant.
And now you have become a cheerleader. How very sad. Her facts just got refuted faster than your language straw men burst into flames the other night. You guys need to start studying history, and quit listening to those Hebrew roots teachers.


Question:

If a hammer is wildly swinging at the air, does it make a sound?
 
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torahgrandma

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I thought it would be fun to throw some more info into the ring. I am not a Greek scholar, nor a Hebrew one – but I think I can read the basic text and use a strong’s for defining words ;)


Joh 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat [g5509]: now the coat [5509] was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

Joh 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which said, They parted my raiment among them, and for my clothing they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.


Verse 24 points to fulfillment of scripture – that Jesus clothing will have lots cast for it. Verse 23 explains exactly what article of clothing is that they are casting lots for.

That article of clothing is specifically g5509.

g5509 = chiton [masculine noun]

1) a tunic, an undergarment, usually worn next to the skin, a garment, a vestment


uses of g5509 in the NT

Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats [g5509], neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Mar 6:9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats [5509].

Luk 3:11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats [g5509], let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

Luk 9:3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats [g5509] apiece.

[two tallitot??]

Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes [g5509], saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Do you really think the High Priest rent his tallit :confused: :swoon:

GLG:

I have been studying your posts, and I must say that they are quite factual. I have not been used to this kind of stuff lately on this thread. I don't want to be accused of cheer leading you, but thanks for taking the time to do the research, and then using scriptural passages as evidence.

All the best
 
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torahgrandma

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I thought it would be fun to throw some more info into the ring. I am not a Greek scholar, nor a Hebrew one – but I think I can read the basic text and use a strong’s for defining words ;)


Joh 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat [g5509]: now the coat [5509] was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

Joh 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which said, They parted my raiment among them, and for my clothing they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.


Verse 24 points to fulfillment of scripture – that Jesus clothing will have lots cast for it. Verse 23 explains exactly what article of clothing is that they are casting lots for.

That article of clothing is specifically g5509.

g5509 = chiton [masculine noun]

1) a tunic, an undergarment, usually worn next to the skin, a garment, a vestment


uses of g5509 in the NT

Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats [g5509], neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.

Mar 6:9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats [5509].

Luk 3:11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats [g5509], let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.

Luk 9:3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats [g5509] apiece.

[two tallitot??]

Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes [g5509], saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Do you really think the High Priest rent his tallit :confused: :swoon:

Garnet stated:

John 19:23, John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece.


Does making it larger make it easier to comprehend?
No, but the thorough, and scripturally supported explanation above by GLG surely did.

;) ahahahahahahahahahaha ;)
 
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LadyGarnetRose

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I thought it would be fun to throw some more info into the ring. I am not a Greek scholar, nor a Hebrew one – but I think I can read the basic text and use a strong’s for defining words ;)


Joh 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat [g5509]: now the coat [5509] was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

Joh 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which said, They parted my raiment among them, and for my clothing they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

Yup...go on..

Verse 24 points to fulfillment of scripture – that Jesus clothing will have lots cast for it. Verse 23 explains exactly what article of clothing is that they are casting lots for.

That article of clothing is specifically g5509.

g5509 = chiton [masculine noun]

1) a tunic, an undergarment, usually worn next to the skin, a garment, a vestment

Again, 2440, 2441, himation , himatismos

uses of g5509 in the NT

Mat 10:10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats [g5509], neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.


Mar 6:9 But be shod with sandals; and not put on two coats [5509].


Luk 3:11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats [g5509], let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise.


Luk 9:3 And he said unto them, Take nothing for your journey, neither staves, nor scrip, neither bread, neither money; neither have two coats [g5509] apiece.

[two tallitot??]

Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes [g5509], saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Do you really think the High Priest rent his tallit :confused: :swoon:

Do you really think that I do not have access to a Strong's concordance?

Also, yes a High Priest will rent their tallit if you knew anything at all about Rabbinical Judaism, instead of repeating that which is pushed forward by the Anti Rabbinical Judaism movement.
 
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IamGodslittlegirl

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Yup...go on..



Again, 2440, 2441, himation , himatismos



Do you really think that I do not have access to a Strong's concordance?

Also, yes a High Priest will rent their tallit if you knew anything at all about Rabbinical Judaism, instead of repeating that which is pushed forward by the Anti Rabbinical Judaism movement.


uhhh . . . the word is g5509 as shown per context, unless you are saying that John, who was a Jew and fully understood Hebrew and Greek, did not understand what he was talking about :confused:

oh - and strong's g2441 does not use tunic in the definiton, but g5509 is a tunic :)

the problem here is that the High Priest rent his chiton g5509
 
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LadyGarnetRose

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uhhh . . . the word is g5509 as shown per context, unless you are saying that John, who was a Jew and fully understood Hebrew and Greek, did not understand what he was talking about :confused:

the problem here is that the High Priest rent his chiton g5509
Yes and they were known to do that.
 
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torahgrandma

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Yes and they were known to do that.

Let me be clear on this. You have no physical, historical, linguistic, or even talmudic proof of a first century tallit, but now you are going to report that they were known to rent an object that there is no proof that one ever existed ?

Nice work if you can get it. :)

Lady,

I have a question. Do you attend an MJ assembly with a Jewish rabbi?
 
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LadyGarnetRose

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Let me be clear on this. You have no physical, historical, linguistic, or even talmudic proof of a first century tallit, but now you are going to report that they were known to rent an object that there is no proof that one ever existed ?

Nice work if you can get it. :)

Lady,

I have a question. Do you attend an MJ assembly with a Jewish rabbi?
There is proof, you just don't want to see it.

I'm done. I refuse to debate this any further with you.
 
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torahgrandma

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There is proof, you just don't want to see it.

I'm done. I refuse to debate this any further with you.

You never did debate it. You gave your opinions, then you gave unsubstantiated "proof" that was disproved with substantiated facts.


Don't go away mad........
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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Also, yes a High Priest will rent their tallit if you knew anything at all about Rabbinical Judaism, instead of repeating that which is pushed forward by the Anti Rabbinical Judaism movement.
Is there realy an "anti Rabbinical Judaism movement?" Or even an anti Messianic Judaism movement?
I know that there has been abundant antiSemitism at various times in the last millenium- even, shamefully, in Eastern Orthodox Russia.
But anti-Rabbinical? Suely you're implying that there is an anti Messianic 'movement.'

It is possible that MJs are experiencing a backlash of the Catholic and Gentile Christian bashing that goes on in many Messianic circles (not all). I have witnessed some pretty wild stuff coming from Messianics.

I think it is unconscionable the way that some Mjs thow around the term 'anti-Semite' in response to some of the MJ polemics. Again, in fairness, it is not all Messianics who engage in such. But disagreeing with and debating ideas is not the same as bashing.
 
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torahgrandma

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Is there realy an "anti Rabbinical Judaism movement?" Or even an anti Messianic Judaism movement?
I know that there has been abundant antiSemitism at various times in the last millenium- even, shamefully, in Eastern Orthodox Russia.
But anti-Rabbinical? Suely you're implying that there is an anti Messianic 'movement.'

It is possible that MJs are experiencing a backlash of the Catholic and Gentile Christian bashing that goes on in many Messianic circles (not all). I have witnessed some pretty wild stuff coming from Messianics.

I think it is unconscionable the way that some Mjs thow around the term 'anti-Semite' in response to some of the MJ polemics. Again, in fairness, it is not all Messianics who engage in such. But disagreeing with and debating ideas is not the same as bashing.

Typically it is not true Messianic Jews who are doing this. It is gentile Messianics who know absolutely nothing about Judaism, who are constantly crying "anti semite" every time they are challenged and do not have an answer. Some of these have shaken their family tree extremely hard looking for a Jew to fall out, and if they can't find one, they over time convince them self that they have.

I find that it is that group who typically promote the errant teachings of the Hebrew roots movement.
 
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LadyGarnetRose

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Being my mother was Jewish, she has passed, and my father is Jewish, and their parents...Jewish, so on and so forth.

I don't have to shake hard to find a Jew in my family.

When I see something as antisemitic, it's because that's how I see it as a grandchild of Holocaust survivors.
 
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torahgrandma

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Being my mother was Jewish, she has passed, and my father is Jewish, and their parents...Jewish, so on and so forth.

I don't have to shake hard to find a Jew in my family.

When I see something as antisemitic, it's because that's how I see it as a grandchild of Holocaust survivors.

Hey Lady!

Nice to have you back :)
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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Being my mother was Jewish, she has passed, and my father is Jewish, and their parents...Jewish, so on and so forth.

I don't have to shake hard to find a Jew in my family.

When I see something as antisemitic, it's because that's how I see it as a grandchild of Holocaust survivors.
So, no offense or disrespect to the memory of your parens: but was the Holocaust they survived arguments on the internet over religious opinions, or was it suffering, murder and oppression?

I find the charges of anti semitism in the face of internet arguments to be a slap in the face of those who truly suffered.
 
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