A little historical newsflash for you Michael. The Ahkenazi tradition was not around at the time of Jesus, because it didn't exist yet. They were all sefardim. BTW, Yiddish is mostly German and Polish with a sprinkling of Hebrew thrown in.
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Did Jesus wear a prayer shawl (tallit)?
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A little historical newsflash for you Michael. The Ahkenazi tradition was not around at the time of Jesus, because it didn't exist yet. They were all sefardim. BTW, Yiddish is mostly German and Polish with a sprinkling of Hebrew thrown in.
HaNotsri
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A little newsflash to you Grannie, I wasn't arguing one way or another. Regardless, you don't think the concept of the tallis came around until the middle ages well after Yiddische had already begun to develop so it doesn't matter anyway
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Still waiting for the archaeological discovery of that first century tallit that looks like the modern one.....any day now.
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The granny has a few questions for the scholars on this thread:
1) They found tefillin at the Qumran site, but they did not find a tallit. Does anyone have any opinions on this?
2) The talmud states this:
The Holy One, blessed be,
surrounded Israel with the commandment of Tephillin for their heads,
Tephillin for their arms, tzitzit for their clothing
and mezuzot for their doors.
Menachot 43a-b
Were they unsure of how to spell the word tallit during the time of this writing?
1) They found tefillin at the Qumran site, but they did not find a tallit. Does anyone have any opinions on this?
2) The talmud states this:
The Holy One, blessed be,
surrounded Israel with the commandment of Tephillin for their heads,
Tephillin for their arms, tzitzit for their clothing
and mezuzot for their doors.
Menachot 43a-b
Were they unsure of how to spell the word tallit during the time of this writing?
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HaNotsri
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It doesn't matter whether or not the garment known as a tallis was created or in use at the time of Jesus.
The fact is that He did wear tsitsiyos as an observant Jew on the four corners of his garments
The garment that is the tallis today (especially the smaller tallis katan) is simply a way of fulfilling the positive mitsvah of wearing fringes on the corners of their garments to remind them of the commandments and of God's greatness. Of course, Jews draw a deeper meaning out of it, but that's it at its basic level
So what are you trying to get at?
The fact is that He did wear tsitsiyos as an observant Jew on the four corners of his garments
The garment that is the tallis today (especially the smaller tallis katan) is simply a way of fulfilling the positive mitsvah of wearing fringes on the corners of their garments to remind them of the commandments and of God's greatness. Of course, Jews draw a deeper meaning out of it, but that's it at its basic level
So what are you trying to get at?
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My responses are based on the OP, which stated that pastors and Hebrew roots teachers are teaching that Jesus wore a modern tallit. I have seen them do this on TV with my own eyes. I saw John Hagee say that Jesus would be wearing a modern tallit when He returns.Hagee had one draped over his shoulders when making this statement. I say that you can not prove this from Scripture. I am in agreement that He wore tsitsits. It is Scriptural.
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HaNotsri
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Who is you? Talk to John Hagee then.
I am not going to say that without a doubt Jesus would wear a modern tallis if he were here today and I don't know if John Hagee actually said that (though I do appreciate a lot of what he says...I did just do a post on his recent AIPAC speech), but I am also not going to say without a doubt that Jesus WOULDN'T wear a modern tallis (with the chilazon or murex dye of course). I don't think it is provable by scripture that He wouldn't if He were here today.
I think we can make the safe assumption that He wore tsitsiyos while He was here, regardless of whether not it was on His everyday clothes or as a shawl (I am inclined to believe the former)
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"you" is anyone who teaches this fallacy. The list is long, and getting longer as we speak. There are a pile of Jewish wannabes out there promoting this, and the church is sucking it up as Gospel truth.Many of them are alos conducting Pesach seders as well to show the "Church" the meaning of Pesach. Very sad.
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LadyGarnetRose
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LOUD WHISTLE....the yiddishkheit police have just arrived on the scene.
When you force the Hebrew tallith (feminine gender) into the Yiddish tallis, it then becomes a masculine gender. (pl. tallesim)
Tallit in Hebrew is feminine gender (pl. tallitot)
Tallis may have crossed over into modern Hebrew, but it is not Biblical Hebrew.
Should I start another thread now titled Did Jesus speak Yiddish?
or "Did Jesus speak modern Hebrew?"
Recap:
Tallith is not used in either the Hebrew Scriptures, nor the Greek. The word used by God for garment (lebush) is a masculine noun.
Don't look now, but the Hebrew roots ship is rapidly taking on water
erhaps I should start a new thread Why not to apply Modern Hebrew to biblical times?
The word L'Boosh only talks of the vesture, not the garments, those are spoke of seperately.
In fact, I'll give you some help, I went and tracked down a Strong's online...
Psa 22:18 They part [02505] (8762) my garments [0899] among them, and cast [05307] (8686) lots [01486] upon my vesture [03830].
So, garments are beged, and vesture is l'buwsh....
But today we call garments clothing, begadeem. And vesture vest tallit.
And yes I got my Hebrew and Yiddish mixed up it happens. I haven't used the actual word Tallit in a long time.
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Here, maybe this will straighten the confusion out. From a modern translation:
[FONT="]John 19:23[/FONT][FONT="] Then3767 the soldiers4757 , when3753 they had crucified4717 Jesus2424 , took2983 His outer2440 garments2440 and made4160 four5064 parts3313 , a part3313 to every1538 soldier4757 and also the tunic5509 ; now1161 the tunic5509 was seamless , woven5307 in one3650 piece3650 .[/FONT]
[FONT="]John 19:24 So3767 they said3004 to one240 another240 , "Let us not tear4977 it, but cast2975 lots2975 for it, to decide whose5101 it shall be"; this was to fulfill4137 the Scripture1124 : "THEY DIVIDED1266 MY OUTER2440 GARMENTS2440 AMONG1266 THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING2441 THEY CAST906 LOTS2819 ."[/FONT]
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LadyGarnetRose
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2441 also means vesture. Or Coat as others have translated it. A Coat, made of 1 solid piece of fabric, with no seams. Saying it's "clothing" really doesn't come close to what something of that nature would have cost to produce in those days.
The only other garment of the day other than what we now call a Tallit, that comes close is a Toga. I don't picture Yeshua running around wearing the clothing of the pagans. Do you?
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The point I am trying to make, is the concept that Jesus wore a modern tallit is merely speculation, with absolutely no Scriptural, historical, or linguistic proof. Years ago I read that the various cultures of the first century all wore similar robes, the difference being that the Jews wore tsitsit. It may have been a commentary from Josephus, but I will re-check. When you start to investigate the etymology of the word tallit, you do not find it in Biblical Hebrew, nor have I ever seen it in Mishnic Hebrew or Aramaic. It appears that it was a word constructed from a Hebrew root much later than the sixth century, possibly in the middle ages. It is no different than the word shekinah. God never called His Glory shekinah in the Hebrew Scriptures. That word was derived from the Hebrew root shakan (H7931), or "to dwell" at a much later date. Now today you can walk into many Pentecostal and other churches, and hear everyone shouting about "the shekinah glory". when in fact, that substitute name for His Glory was never authorized by The Almighty. You can find it in the kabbalistic works of the Zohar. I remember one woman that I was told about, who went around touring churches as a prophetess, (rolls eyes) who stood in front of the assembly moving her hands in a circular motion like a woman would do on erev Shabbat to distribute the light, saying that she was spreading the shekinah glory about the room. You are kidding me ....right? It is no different than the roots people who want to take the magen David, which is a late rabbinic symbol of Judaism, and try and jam it into a first century application. A perfect example of this is the grafted in symbol. The magen David was around during the first century, but it was used by pagan cultures as a magical symbol. This is historical.
In the end, the anti missionaries point at all of this insanity, and say to the Jewish people “So is this what you want to join?”
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Let's first review some other important facts. The first century Jews were an assimilated people, and had been that way for centuries. The temple was flying the eagle of rome at the entrance, which is the symbol of a pagan culture. The coins used in the temple had a pagan god on one side. Herod, the son of an Edomite father and a Samaritan mother (not from the lineage of David) was now the appointed (by Rome) King of the Jewish people. The essenes had fled Jerusalem to live at Qumran, because the level of Holiness had degraded so badly there.
And in the end, when asked if Jesus was their King, the Jewish scribes shouted out "We have no king but caesar". I think what they were wearing was the least of their problems.
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What a dreadful botch up this is.
Try doing an analysis of the text cited, not another text. My goodness....you've been told so often thatthe words you are RANTING on about are too generalised ot be descriptive....and here, LGR gives you a description of the actual item in question (no, it is not named, but described in detail nonetheles) and you run back to words that mean "clothing" etc. Again, you're still trying to prove that Jesus wore clothing...well done...we know that....know what one garment looked like?...a Tallit!
Sorry, but lady garnet hammered you, good and proper...and anything else just makes you look recalcitrant.
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Lebush is a general term for garment (the usus loquendi of the scriptures makes it clear). It could be describing a cloak, a robe, a pair of jeans, a baseball jersey....whatever.
So, if Mary told Jesus to dress himself, did she only have one word for all of His clothing or not? Of course not.
We know that the Hebrew language contains many terms not found in the scriptures, yet clearly real nonetheless. There are myriads of books written by Jews around the Second Temple era or very close to it that describe articles of clothing using terms not found in the Tanakh.
We've told you about four times what those items were called- you've yet to show us why we're wrong.
Next.
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LadyGarnetRose
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LadyGarnetRose
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(pulls out her Maccabee)
First off, SOME were Helenized not all.
Second off, Yes in 5 BC Herod was King. In 4 BC Herod "Slayer of the innocents" was dead.
Third off, the Essenes left about 68 AD NOT while Herod was still in power. The Essenes LEFT 2 years before the destruction of the Temple seeing what was to come.
Fourth off, Of course, are leaving out the fact that the Jews at first protected Yeshua, and got Him out of the hands of Herod as a child. SOME of the Jews screamed that, others well The Council of Jerusalem, which you know better in the records as "The Book of Acts" about 16 years after the Crucifixion, was filled...with Jews.
Fifth off, Herod was the King of Judea the entire area. Not just the Jews living there.
Sixth off, I stated what WAS YESHUA WEARING. Not what the rest of the Jews were wearing.
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IamGodslittlegirl
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I am curious what Jews protected Jesus as a child from Herod.
Back to the clothing issue. I am finding the discussion has varied from its original concept of prayer shawl to now having similarity to a robe/garment/cloak/mantle/vesture/tunic, etc.
According to the definition of tallit/tallis, this item of apparel is not a robe or a garment that clothe the body as in "clothing". It is a shawl or large scarf that is draped over the head and about the shoulders and falls forward over the chest hanging down to a certain length, with tzitzit hanging off the four corners.
I have never seen any other item that is called a tallit look different than this - Jewish retail on the net from Israel, has the same general style - unless you have a picture of something different?
From my understanding this is not an item that is worn continuously, but only at times of prayer or study or at worship or a specifically defined purpose. A prayer is said before putting it on. I understand that the tallit katan is worn under clothing, but is a different style of apparel.
So how did the discussion get away from the actual definition of tallit?
Would you wear a tallit all by itself with nothing on but that
Tallit (TAH-lit; TAH-lis) A shawl-like garment worn during morning services, with tzitzit (long fringes) attached to the corners as a reminder of the commandments. Sometimes called a prayer shawl.
http://www.barmitzvahs.org/judaism/defs/tallit.php
ps: why is there no historical documentation of a prayer shawl from the first century?
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