Did Jesus wear a prayer shawl (tallit)?

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ContraMundum

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Well, since the word tallith does not appear in the Hebrew Scriptures, nor does it appear in the Greek in any form transliterated or otherwise, I would have to say that tallith was not spoken anywhere in the Bible.

Interesting that many articles of clothing are not the Bible, yet they existed.

The problem you have here is that you think that unless Jews wore 1st C clothing they are not being real Jews. We all know that the Gelima, Goltha or Tallit (let's use English, ok? The rest of our posts are) fell into disuse mainly because of the natural change in fashion and that the modern day Tallit is a way of maintaining the mitzvah by reviving the fringed outer garment.

What's your problem with that?

Since a robe with tsitsit is not a modern tallit (as the OP states) I think we can safely say that Jesus wore a robe with tsitsit, and not a modern tallit. This is commonly known as deductive reasoning.

Your problem is this: in order to have fringes, it must have four corners. A four cornered outer garment is called a Goltha or Tallit, depending. (Ok, or Kesut, or even Beged if you like, but certainly by the Second Temple period Goltha or Tallit)

You know where a good place to find references to ancient Jewish clothing is? The Talmud. As a student of the Talmud you should already know all of this and also know that it is far older than the Middle Ages.
 
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ContraMundum

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Did you study at Hebrew school? If so you know that Moses seat was where the Torah was read from. (modern day bimah) He was saying that when they instruct from the Torah, receive it. But not to do as they do.

...which is exactly what the Talmud and Rabbinical Judaism teaches. Hypocrisy is denounced.
 
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torahgrandma

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ITallit is a way of maintaining the mitzvah by reviving the fringed outer garment.

What's your problem with that?

Your problem is this: in order to have fringes, it must have four corners..

I addressed the four "corners" issue using an example in the Hebrew Scriptures where it states the four corners of the world (round).

Isaiah 11
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners (kanaph) of the earth.
 
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ContraMundum

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Well, I guess you have figured out that the Granny is not anti Jewish. :)

I wish I could reply to that, but it's against forum rules.

Reading the talmud in place of the Torah, Prophets, Writings, NC writings, is like reading the book of catechism instead of the Bible. Lots of "tradition", but short on the Word. Since the talmud blasphemes Christ, it is now off my list BUT, I still know what it said.

I've never met anyone who reads the Talmud in place of the Tanakh or the NT. I don't know who you're denouncing.
 
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ContraMundum

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I addressed the four "corners" issue using an example in the Hebrew Scriptures where it states the four corners of the world (round).

Yes, I know, but context determines the meaning, and idioms do not define physical commandments (simple basic rules of grammar and theology), so I don't accept that kind of interpretive liberty.

Besides, tradition is on my side, and it's a very powerful force. ;)
 
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torahgrandma

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Yes, I know, but context determines the meaning, and idioms do not define physical commandments (simple basic rules of grammar and theology), so I don't accept that kind of interpretive liberty.

Besides, tradition is on my side, and it's a very powerful force. ;)

You may think that tradition is on your side, but unfortunately, the Hebrew language isn't:

Deuteronomy 22
12[FONT=&quot]You shall make for yourself tassels on the four corners([/FONT][FONT=&quot]ארבע[/FONT][FONT=&quot] כנפות[/FONT][FONT=&quot] al 'arba` kanpowt) of your cloak with which you cover. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And He shall lift up a banner for the nations, and shall gather the outcasts of Israel, and gather those dispersed from Judah, from the four corners ( [/FONT][FONT=&quot]מארבע כנפות[/FONT][FONT=&quot]me arba` kanpowt) of the earth.[/FONT]
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You may think that tradition is on your side, but unfortunately, the Hebrew language isn't:

Deuteronomy 22
12[FONT=&quot]You shall make for yourself tassels on the four corners([/FONT][FONT=&quot]ארבע[/FONT][FONT=&quot] כנפות[/FONT][FONT=&quot] al 'arba` kanpowt) of your cloak with which you cover. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And He shall lift up a banner for the nations, and shall gather the outcasts of Israel, and gather those dispersed from Judah, from the four corners ( [/FONT][FONT=&quot]מארבע כנפות[/FONT][FONT=&quot]me arba` kanpowt) of the earth[/FONT].
:thumbsup: Same exact way in Reve 20!!!!!

Luke 21:20 " But when you see Jerusalem surrounded/kukloumenhn <2944> by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

Reve 20:8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the Four Corners of the Land, Gog and Magog, 9 and they did go up over the breadth of the land, and did surround/ekuklwsan<2944> the camp of the saints, and the beloved city, and there came down fire from God out of the heaven, and devoured them;
 
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ContraMundum

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You may think that tradition is on your side, but unfortunately, the Hebrew language isn't:

Deuteronomy 22
12[FONT=&quot]You shall make for yourself tassels on the four corners([/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#1488;&#1512;&#1489;&#1506;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] &#1499;&#1504;&#1508;&#1493;&#1514;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] al 'arba` kanpowt) of your cloak with which you cover. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Isaiah 11[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And He shall lift up a banner for the nations, and shall gather the outcasts of Israel, and gather those dispersed from Judah, from the four corners ( [/FONT][FONT=&quot]&#1502;&#1488;&#1512;&#1489;&#1506; &#1499;&#1504;&#1508;&#1493;&#1514;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]me arba` kanpowt) of the earth.[/FONT]

It's called figurative language. We all know that a garment can have four corners and that the world does not have four literal corners.

Context, context. The Hebrew language uses both figurative speech and literal- just like every other language on the face of the planet.

So, plucked out any eyes lately?
 
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ContraMundum

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Great movie...but tradition doesn't trump Scripture. Thanks for playing.

It's not about trumping....it's about supporting...and you have no tradition to support your unique and novel interpretation of the scriptures...I do.

What you're doing is switching tags- you are saying that four corners cannot mean four corners...it can mean round like the Planet though. That's pretty cultic. The Watchtower would be envious.

How do you know you're right and why should we believe you?
 
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Rdr Iakovos

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Then why have you chipped in to this thread, dragging in pet dogmas against Protestantism, cloaked comments about the glory of the EO church and preaching on the canon of scripture?

What are you here for if you don't care?
The obvious answer to your faux question is that I stated what should be obvious: what Jesus wore is of little or no consequence. Truly you swallow a camel to strain out a gnat.

The "cloaked comments" you falsely charge me with were answers to your ad hominems and strawmen: preaching on canon was in response to your race baiting and history murdering: you reserve the right to make sarcastic and sardonic comments on the ECFs, yet you would begrudge me a passing comment or two on what I find problematic.

What ploy shall you employ next? Claiming to be bored with what I have to say?
I think you already used that one on tg some twelve or more pages ago.
/counter-polemics
 
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LadyGarnetRose

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Ya know what, amazing where God will lead you.


John 19:23 23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece.

Construction of a Tallit... without seam, woven in one piece.


Yeshua wore a tallit.

End of discussion.
 
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torahgrandma

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Ya know what, amazing where God will lead you.


John 19:23 23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece.

Construction of a Tallit... without seam, woven in one piece.


Yeshua wore a tallit.

End of discussion.

Nice try, but there are some linguistic facts that you may have overlooked:

Psalms 22:18 They part <2505> my garments <899> among them, and cast <5307> lots <1486> upon my vesture <3830>.
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot] &#1497;&#1495;&#1500;&#1511;&#1493;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2505 [/FONT]They part[FONT=&quot] &#1489;&#1490;&#1491;&#1497;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]899 [/FONT]my garments[FONT=&quot] &#1500;&#1492;&#1501;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1992[/FONT][FONT=&quot] &#1493;&#1506;&#1500;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]5921[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]upon[FONT=&quot] &#1500;&#1489;&#1493;&#1513;&#1473;&#1497;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3830[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]my[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]vesture.[FONT=&quot] &#1497;&#1508;&#1497;&#1500;&#1493;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]5307[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]among them, and cast[FONT=&quot] &#1490;&#1493;&#1512;&#1500;&#1475;[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1486[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]lots[FONT=&quot][/FONT]​

Here is the BDB meaning of the Hebrew word <H3830> used above for the outer garment (vesture):

H3830
&#1500;&#1489;&#1513;&#1473; / &#1500;&#1489;&#1493;&#1468;&#1513;&#1473;
lebu&#770;sh
BDB Definition:
1) clothing, garment, apparel, raiment
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H3847
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1075a

You will also notice that neither the Hebrew words tsitsit nor kanaph are used in the passage in Psalms, that is quoted in John19:24, and as stated earlier, tallith does not appear anywhere in the Old Testament or the New Testament.

John 19
24 Then they said to one another, Let us not tear it, but let us cast lots about it, whose it will be (that the Scripture might be fulfilled which said, "They divided My garments among them," and "they threw a lot for My garment/vesture <2441>." Then indeed the soldiers did these things. (Psa. 22:18)

[FONT=&quot](John 19:24)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] &#949;&#953;&#960;&#959;&#957; 2036(5627)[THEY SAID] &#959;&#965;&#957; 3767[THEREFORE] &#960;&#961;&#959;&#962; 4314[TO] &#945;&#955;&#955;&#951;&#955;&#959;&#965;&#962; 240 &#956;&#951; 3361[ONE ANOTHER,] &#963;&#967;&#953;&#963;&#969;&#956;&#949;&#957; 4977(5661)[LET US NOT REND] &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#957; 846[IT,] &#945;&#955;&#955;&#945; 235[BUT] &#955;&#945;&#967;&#969;&#956;&#949;&#957; 2975(5632)[LET US CAST LOTS] &#960;&#949;&#961;&#953; 4012[FOR] &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#965; 846[IT] &#964;&#953;&#957;&#959;&#962; 5101[WHOSE] &#949;&#963;&#964;&#945;&#953; 2071(5704)[IT SHALL BE;] &#953;&#957;&#945; 2443[THAT] &#951; 3588[THE] &#947;&#961;&#945;&#966;&#951; 1124[SCRIPTURE] &#960;&#955;&#951;&#961;&#969;&#952;&#951; 4137(5686)[MIGHT BE FULFILLED] &#951; 3588[WHICH] &#955;&#949;&#947;&#959;&#965;&#963;&#945; 3004(5723)[SAYS,] &#948;&#953;&#949;&#956;&#949;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#959; 1266(5668) &#964;&#945; 3588[THEY DIVIDED] &#953;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#953;&#945; 2440 &#956;&#959;&#965; 3450[MY GARMENTS] &#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; 1438[AMONG THEM,] &#954;&#945;&#953; 2532[AND] &#949;&#960;&#953; 1909 &#964;&#959;&#957; 3588[FOR] &#953;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#959;&#957; 2441 [MY VESTURE] &#956;&#959;&#965; 3450 &#949;&#946;&#945;&#955;&#959;&#957; 906(5627)[THEY CAST] &#954;&#955;&#951;&#961;&#959;&#957; 2819[A LOT.] &#959;&#953; 3588 &#956;&#949;&#957; 3303[THE] &#959;&#965;&#957; 3767[THEREFORE] &#963;&#964;&#961;&#945;&#964;&#953;&#969;&#964;&#945;&#953; 4757[SOLDIERS] &#964;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#945; 5023[THESE THINGS] &#949;&#960;&#959;&#953;&#951;&#963;&#945;&#957; 4160(5656)[DID.][/FONT]

In the Septuagint (LXX) we find that the Jewish translators who chose a Greek equivalent for the Hebrew words found in the Old Testament, chose the same Greek word that we find in John 19:24, which is himatismos:

[FONT=&quot]([/FONT]LXX 21:19[FONT=&quot]) &#948;&#953;&#949;&#956;&#949;&#961;&#953;&#963;&#945;&#957;&#964;&#959; 1266[V-AMI-3P] &#964;&#945; 3588[T-APN] &#953;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#953;&#945; 2440[N-APN] &#956;&#959;&#965; 1473[P-GS] &#949;&#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; 1438[D-DPM] &#954;&#945;&#953; 2532[CONJ] &#949;&#960;&#953; 1909[PREP] &#964;&#959;&#957; 3588[T-ASM] &#953;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#959;&#957; 2441[N-ASM] &#956;&#959;&#965; 1473[P-GS] &#949;&#946;&#945;&#955;&#959;&#957; 906[V-AAI-3P] &#954;&#955;&#951;&#961;&#959;&#957; 2819[N-ASM][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
G2441
[FONT=&quot]&#953;&#788;&#956;&#945;&#964;&#953;&#963;&#956;&#959;&#769;&#962;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]himatismos[/FONT]
Thayer Definition:
1) clothing, apparel
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2439

In no way is this word related to the Hebrew kanaph or tsitsit. And tallith is not mentioned anywhere in the Scriptures.
 
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torahgrandma

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Ya know what, amazing where God will lead you.

yes it is :)

John 19:23 23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took His garments and made four parts, to each soldier a part, and also the tunic. Now the tunic was without seam, woven from the top in one piece.

Construction of a Tallit... without seam, woven in one piece.


Yeshua wore a tallit.

End of discussion.
Well, maybe not quite yet....

John 23 quotes Psalms 22:18. The Hebrew word in that passage representing His outer garment is a masculine noun
&#1500;&#1489;&#1493;&#1468;&#1513;&#1473;. Since I assume that you are a fluent Hebrew speaker, you should know that words end in "it" are usually feminine gender. This is the case with tallit, as it is a feminine noun. Now, if all scripture is God breathed as you stated in an earlier post, then why are you trying to jam a feminine noun into a slot occupied by a masculine noun. God chose the correct word, the word that best expressed the thought that He wanted to convey, and that word was not tallit. As a matter of fact, He didn't use that word anywhere in any book of Scripture.
 
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LadyGarnetRose

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yes it is :)

Well, maybe not quite yet....

John 23 quotes Psalms 22:18. The Hebrew word in that passage representing His outer garment is a masculine noun &#1500;&#1489;&#1493;&#1468;&#1513;&#1473;. Since I assume that you are a fluent Hebrew speaker, you should know that words end in "it" are usually feminine gender. This is the case with tallit, as it is a feminine noun. Now, if all scripture is God breathed as you stated in an earlier post, then why are you trying to jam a feminine noun into a slot occupied by a masculine noun. God chose the correct word, the word that best expressed the thought that He wanted to convey, and that word was not tallit. As a matter of fact, He didn't use that word anywhere in any book of Scripture.


Good point, but not strong enough.

The Plural is Taleisim, the suffix im being usually masculine...

So, try again.
 
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LadyGarnetRose

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Ahhh .... so Jesus wore more than one tallis?
how many would that have been - like 3, 4, or 5 of them? :scratch:
No, I was pointing out the flaw in Grannies argument that because the suffix it is usually feminine, that it cannot be describing the same thing as L'Bewsh that in modern Hebrew is masculine.
 
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HaNotsri

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Ahhh .... so Jesus wore more than one tallis?
how many would that have been - like 3, 4, or 5 of them? :scratch:

The point was to talk about whether the word tallis was feminine or masculine. Unfortunately, it's not quite that simple as the word tallis takes on feminine or masculine form depending on which tradition you belong to. S'fardim for instance generally use the term as a feminine noun. Ashkenazim generally use the term as a masculine noun.
 
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torahgrandma

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Good point, but not strong enough.

The Plural is Taleisim, the suffix im being usually masculine...

So, try again.

LOUD WHISTLE....the yiddishkheit police have just arrived on the scene.

When you force the Hebrew tallith (feminine gender) into the Yiddish tallis, it then becomes a masculine gender. (pl. tallesim)

Tallit in Hebrew is feminine gender (pl. tallitot)

Tallis may have crossed over into modern Hebrew, but it is not Biblical Hebrew.

Should I start another thread now titled &#8220;Did Jesus speak Yiddish?&#8221;

or "Did Jesus speak modern Hebrew?"

Recap:

Tallith is not used in either the Hebrew Scriptures, nor the Greek. The word used by God for garment (lebush) is a masculine noun.

Don't look now, but the Hebrew roots ship is rapidly taking on water

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
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