Did Jesus wear a prayer shawl (tallit)?

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torahgrandma

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First time: if we are all wrong, then please feel free to tell us what Jesus wore and more importantly what was it called?

I told you back at the beginning of the thread. He wore tsitsit on His existing robe. Sorry you missed it. Think of all the bandwidth that was wasted.....sigh.
 
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ContraMundum

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Contra, It's late, and the Hebrew font is really small, so could you please be a dear and highlight in red the word minhag מנהגin the Hebrew text that she posted earlier for me. I probably need to get better glasses.




"... בני הזהר בדברי סופרים יותר מדברי תורה שדברי תורה יש בהן עשה ולא תעשהודברי סופרים כל העובר על דברי סופרים חייב מיתה..." [תלמוד בבלי מסכתעירובין דף כא/ב]


When I referred to minhag I was referring to the English text of the ADIT statement, not the Talmud. The English word the ADIT used was "practice", which is Anglo-speak for minhag and even halacha. You should read more carefully. The English text preceeded the Talmud and tried to use the Talmudic reference in support of its statement. You have quoted the Talmudic statement. It appears your argument is with the ATID, not with me.

The point being, this statement cited by your buddy has nothing to do with the authority of the Torah vs the Scribes on anything other than practice.
 
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ContraMundum

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I told you back at the beginning of the thread. He wore tsitsit on His existing robe. Sorry you missed it. Think of all the bandwidth that was wasted.....sigh.

..and what's the Hebrew word for "existing robe"? LOL

What was His garment called, grannie?
 
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torahgrandma

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All of which differ quite a bit to the accepted Greek Septuagint.

Should I also mention that the Greek manuscripts found and Qumran also contain Hebrew many of the times?

Especially with regards to the name of God.

You mean Yod Hey Vav Hey in paleo in a few of the fragments? Thanks for the lesson walch. Granny was lookin at the DSS when you were in diapers. :)
 
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ContraMundum

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You mean Yod Hey Vav Hey in paleo in a few of the fragments? Thanks for the lesson walch. Granny was lookin at the DSS when you were in diapers. :)

Really? You have some of them in your garage do you?

Heheheh. :D

(C'mon, have fun with it grannie!)
 
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torahgrandma

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..and what's the Hebrew word for "existing robe"? LOL

What was His garment called, grannie?

No problem. it is לבוּשׁ



You do read Hebrew....don't you Contra? BTW, is Contra your bar mitzvah name? :)

Here is the Hebrew in context:

יחלקו בגדי להם ועל־לבושׁי יפילו גורל׃

If you like I will transliterate it phonetically for ya.
 
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torahgrandma

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When I referred to minhag I was referring to the English text of the ADIT statement, not the Talmud. The English word the ADIT used was "practice", which is Anglo-speak for minhag and even halacha. You should read more carefully. The English text preceeded the Talmud and tried to use the Talmudic reference in support of its statement. .

Actually Contra,

The talmud (which is what is being analyzed btw) says that the words of the scribes בדברי סופרים are more important than the words of the Torah.


You do read Hebrew don't you contra?


In the immortal words of my good friend Contra:



"
But, I'm not here to teach you Judaism, so you have to go and do your own homework and research. See you in about 10 years."



 
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ContraMundum

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No problem. it is לבוּשׁ



You do read Hebrew....don't you Contra? BTW, is Contra your bar mitzvah name? :)

Heheheee....

Don't be a wise gal! LOL At least I had a Bar-Mitzvah!

Ummm......I've never heard of a 1st Century fringed garment by that name! Can you "prove" that you are right? :D

I mean, your word is not exactly precise, isn't it? It's not a specific name of an article of clothing......don't you think the items I'd already mentioned (way back ages ago) are at least in the ballpark? (in fact they are exactly accurate)
 
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ContraMundum

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Actually Contra,

the talmud (which is what is being analyzed) says that the words of the scribes בדברי סופרים are more important than the words of the Torah.

You do read Hebrew don't you contra?

In the immortal words of my good friend Contra:

"But, I'm not here to teach you Judaism, so you have to go and do your own homework and research. See you in about 10 years."


It's about the context, grannie. Read the CONTEXT.

Quit trying to make a point the Talmud isn't. You've never studied Talmud outside of the internet and your own selective reading so don't pretend to know what it teaches.

And yes, my Hebrew is fine...certainly better than yours. I'm not the one quoting "garment" ( לבוּשׁ) to try to describe what a 1st Century fringed garment was called and what it looked like.

Please don't waste our time.
 
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torahgrandma

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Heheheee....

Don't be a wise gal! LOL At least I had a Bar-Mitzvah!

Really. What was you parasha? Did the rabbi transliterate it for you? :)

Ummm......I've never heard of a 1st Century fringed garment by that name! Can you "prove" that you are right? :D

I mean, your word is not exactly precise, isn't it? It's not a specific name of an article of clothing......don't you think the items I'd already mentioned (way back ages ago) are at least in the ballpark? (in fact they are exactly accurate)

Well since God Almighty inspired man to write it, I would guess that it is extremely accurate.

What do I know.
 
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torahgrandma

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It's about the context, grannie. Read the CONTEXT.

Quit trying to make a point the Talmud isn't. You've never studied Talmud outside of the internet and your own selective reading so don't pretend to know what it teaches.

And yes, my Hebrew is fine...certainly better than yours. I'm not the one quoting "garment" ( לבוּשׁ) to try to describe what a 1st Century fringed garment was called and what it looked like.

Please don't waste our time.

Once again....appealing to yourself as an authority on all things Jewish. You need to get a new schtick Contra.
 
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ContraMundum

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Well, grannie, time to make a summary.

So far, all you've done is succeeded in proving that Jesus wore clothes.

Again. This is the third (?) time you've proven to us He wore clothes. Well done. I can honestly say I've never seen anyone try so hard to prove the obvious.

Here's the situation, in plain English, so that everybody is on top of the topic:

If Mary, mother of Jesus, told Him to put on His fringed outer garment before He went outside to rebuke a Pharisee or something, what word would she use to describe it?

We know there were words to describe it, and we have provided them. You say we're wrong. Show us why.
 
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torahgrandma

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It's about the context, grannie. Read the CONTEXT.

I read the context. The context of the whole passage in Hebrew contra. It says what I stated. If I remember correctly from my Talmud days, there was also a passage about if you deny the words of the sages you would lose your place in olam haba.
 
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ContraMundum

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Once again....appealing to yourself as an authority on all things Jewish. You need to get a new schtick Contra.

You mean like this?:

grannie sayeth unto the forum said:
You mean Yod Hey Vav Hey in paleo in a few of the fragments? Thanks for the lesson walch. Granny was lookin at the DSS when you were in diapers. :)

Just answer the questions and we can take our ad-hominem elsewhere, ok? (both of us)
 
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torahgrandma

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Well, grannie, time to make a summary.

So far, all you've done is succeeded in proving that Jesus wore clothes.

Again. This is the third (?) time you've proven to us He wore clothes. Well done. I can honestly say I've never seen anyone try so hard to prove the obvious.

Here's the situation, in plain English, so that everybody is on top of the topic:

If Mary, mother of Jesus, told Him to put on His fringed outer garment before He went outside to rebuke a Pharisee or something, what word would she use to describe it?

We know there were words to describe it, and we have provided them. You say we're wrong. Show us why.

Well, since the word tallith does not appear in the Hebrew Scriptures, nor does it appear in the Greek in any form transliterated or otherwise, I would have to say that tallith was not spoken anywhere in the Bible. Since a robe with tsitsit is not a modern tallit (as the OP states) I think we can safely say that Jesus wore a robe with tsitsit, and not a modern tallit. This is commonly known as deductive reasoning.
 
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ContraMundum

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I read the context. The context of the whole passage in Hebrew contra. It says what I stated. If I remember correctly from my Talmud days, there was also a passage about if you deny the words of the sages you would lose your place in olam haba.


Ok, I can agree with the second part of that (to a point), but you'd also know that there is an a priori principle when studying Talmud, that is, that the Torah is from God, and the sages are inspired, yet not as Moses was. This is why there is Gemara in the first place, right? I mean, I don't know which tradition of Judaism you studied under, but that's how I understand it.

...and isn't it interesting that Jesus said "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." (Matt 23:2 ff)

Perhaps He was referring to something that developed and made its way into the Talmud?
 
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torahgrandma

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Ok, I can agree with the second part of that (to a point), but you'd also know that there is an a priori principle when studying Talmud, that is, that the Torah is from God, and the sages are inspired, yet not as Moses was. This is why there is Gemara in the first place, right? I mean, I don't know which tradition of Judaism you studied under, but that's how I understand it.

...and isn't it interesting that Jesus said "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." (Matt 23:2 ff)

Perhaps He was referring to something that developed and made its way into the Talmud?

Did you study at Hebrew school? If so you know that Moses seat was where the Torah was read from. (modern day bimah) He was saying that when they instruct from the Torah, receive it. But not to do as they do.
 
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torahgrandma

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Well, I guess you have figured out that the Granny is not anti Jewish. :)
Reading the talmud in place of the Torah, Prophets, Writings, NC writings, is like reading the book of catechism instead of the Bible. Lots of "tradition", but short on the Word. Since the talmud blasphemes Christ, it is now off my list BUT, I still know what it said.
 
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