Did Jesus Change the Law or Not?

[Sheeple Shepherd]

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[Sheeple Shepherd]

I was talking about collecting kindle on Shabbat - a specific instance in the Torah. I wasn't talking about tsitsit. You're making a connection that I didn't make, and such a connection isn't in the Torah itself. Look at Numbers 15:32-36.

You really are difficult.

What I posted regarding the tsitsit is a DIRECT RESULT OF THE GATHERING OF WOOD!!!!!!!
What I posted was the BALANCE of Numbers 15.


READ THE WHOLE THING!!!!!!!!!!!

It is one continuous thought/passage. Scripture is not divided by chapter and verse as it is in english bible.

 

[yonah_mishael]

You really are difficult.

What I posted regarding the tsitsit is a DIRECT RESULT OF THE GATHERING OF WOOD!!!!!!!
What I posted was the BALANCE of Numbers 15.


READ THE WHOLE THING!!!!!!!!!!!

It is one continuous thought/passage. Scripture is not divided by chapter and verse as it is in english bible.

The text has nothing to do with idolatry. It has to do with gathering wood to make a fire on Shabbat.

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

The text has nothing to do with idolatry. It has to do with gathering wood to make a fire on Shabbat.

A Sabbath-Breaker Stoned

(Exodus 31:12-17)



32And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.35And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

The Law of Tassels

37And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 38Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: 39And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring: 40That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. 41I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

The text has nothing to do with idolatry. It has to do with gathering wood to make a fire on Shabbat.

You are a language teacher?????????

You know the word 'and'?

That one word that connects verses 36 to 37????????/ that word?

One passage.

 

[yonah_mishael]

A Sabbath-Breaker Stoned

(Exodus 31:12-17)



32And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. 33And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. 34And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.35And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. 36And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

The Law of Tassels

37And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 38Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: 39And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring: 40That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. 41I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.

And it is your contention that since they appear together in the text, then the one text explains the motive behind the other?

 

[yonah_mishael]

You are a language teacher?????????

You know the word 'and'?

That one word that connects verses 36 to 37????????/ that word?

One passage.

In Hebrew, "and" is used to simply open a narrative as much as it is to connect one verse to another. It is simply a vav-conversive, which is used to elevate a verb to the first level of narrative. It has nothing to do with connectedness of thought.

Again, we read very different Bibles. I read the Hebrew Bible. You read Strong's lexicon and depend on it through your understanding of English. We will come to different conclusions because you don't know how to read the text.

 

[pat34lee]

It's actually a tenant of Judaism that the Messiah will teach us the correct way to interpret the Torah - and even change the way that we've been doing things. After all, the supernal Torah is written with no spaces between the letters, no verse markings. The idea is that the Torah's words will be re-connected in new ways, to create new verses and new sentences, which the Messiah will teach - and the message may indeed be quite different from how we've understood it until now.

What would bind Jesus to the traditional understanding of the Torah, if he were the Messiah?

Nothing. And he did explain the Torah, he just didn't change it. One place
was where he said lusting was the same as committing adultery in one's
heart, and hatred the same as murder. Many of his arguments with the
Pharisees were over how they had misinterpreted and misapplied the Torah.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Nothing. And he did explain the Torah, he just didn't change it. One place
was where he said lusting was the same as committing adultery in one's
heart, and hatred the same as murder. Many of his arguments with the
Pharisees were over how they had misinterpreted and misapplied the Torah.

But you cannot really think that wanting something is the same as taking it. It is actually virtuous to overcome desire for bad things - but to imagine that the desire itself is evil? That is bizarre. How can wanting to sleep with someone else's wife really be the same thing as doing it? This doesn't seem right at all! It is the very act of not doing the evil act that you want to do that makes you a righteous person. Paul understood this.

 

[ContraMundum]

Let's say that you are correct for a second, and he changed the law.
In that case, he was a fraud and anti-messiah and deserved to die for his own sin.
Read Deuteronomy 13.

What? Who said anything about changing the law?

Why make this stuff so hard?

 

[visionary]

Bottom line is .... If you want to be one of God's saints... Here are the saints, Here are they that keep the Commandments of God and have the faith of Yeshua. ...

When you boil it all down.. you will come back to the utimate goal that God has for His people... They will be the saints that John revealed in Revelation.

 

[big macher]

It's actually a tenant of Judaism that the Messiah will teach us the correct way to interpret the Torah - and even change the way that we've been doing things. After all, the supernal Torah is written with no spaces between the letters, no verse markings. The idea is that the Torah's words will be re-connected in new ways, to create new verses and new sentences, which the Messiah will teach - and the message may indeed be quite different from how we've understood it until now.

What would bind Jesus to the traditional understanding of the Torah, if he were the Messiah?

Yes some say it's a new Torah not the Law of Moses such as 'Some sages teach that one of the most curious changes that will take place in the Messianic Era is the emergence of a New Torah. Some teach that in the Messianic Era a New Torah will come from God and that our current Torah will be nothing compared to the New Torah of Messiah.'

"The Torah which a man learns in this world is vanity compared with the Torah of the Messiah"

 

[Shimshon]

Yes some say it's a new Torah not the Law of Moses such as 'one of the most curious changes that will take place in the Messianic Era is the emergence of a New Torah. The rabbis teach that in the Messianic Era a New Torah will come from God and that our current Torah will be nothing compared to the New Torah of Messiah.'

Jeremiah 3:16

 

[pat34lee]

But you cannot really think that wanting something is the same as taking it. It is actually virtuous to overcome desire for bad things - but to imagine that the desire itself is evil? That is bizarre. How can wanting to sleep with someone else's wife really be the same thing as doing it? This doesn't seem right at all! It is the very act of not doing the evil act that you want to do that makes you a righteous person. Paul understood this.

Matthew 5:28
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';
28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

You think this is bizarre? How about this?

Exodus 20:17
"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Same thing.

 

[BukiRob]

The goy were, are, Israel. Those who had lost their identity.

No they are not. Goy existed before Israel was dispersed....

 

[visionary]

The death clause is in God's hands where it belongs. It is not done away with, it is the end result of sin and sinner in the final death.

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

I'm disheartened to see that when people disagree over a point they are rude to each other, can't we all be friendly to each other as we discuss the topics? Makes it much more interesting to discuss things!

I'm bored.........Read Gen 4

9And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 10And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. 11And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 12When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. 13And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear. 14Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

16And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

But you cannot really think that wanting something is the same as taking it. It is actually virtuous to overcome desire for bad things - but to imagine that the desire itself is evil? That is bizarre. How can wanting to sleep with someone else's wife really be the same thing as doing it? This doesn't seem right at all! It is the very act of not doing the evil act that you want to do that makes you a righteous person. Paul understood this.

I think it's more like if you want to do it but don't succeed. If I know a girl is married, and I try and seduce her, she might reject me, but I'm as guilty as I would be had I done the deed. If I plan to murder someone and the situation doesn't arise, the fact that the murder didn't take place doesn't make me any less guilty.

I don't think it's the same as just sitting at home imagining seducing Mrs. Jones next door* or murdering Mr. Jones with no real intention.


* As has been mentioned, this would come under coveting, I believe.

 

[pinacled]

I'm disheartened to see that when people disagree over a point they are rude to each other, can't we all be friendly to each other as we discuss the topics? Makes it much more interesting to discuss things!





I think it's more like if you want to do it but don't succeed. If I know a girl is married, and I try and seduce her, she might reject me, but I'm as guilty as I would be had I done the deed. If I plan to murder someone and the situation doesn't arise, the fact that the murder didn't take place doesn't make me any less guilty.

I don't think it's the same as just sitting at home imagining seducing Mrs. Jones next door* or murdering Mr. Jones with no real intention.


* As has been mentioned, this would come under coveting, I believe.

I believe this is also known as vexation.

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

I'm disheartened to see that when people disagree over a point they are rude to each other, can't we all be friendly to each other as we discuss the topics? Makes it much more interesting to discuss things!





I think it's more like if you want to do it but don't succeed. If I know a girl is married, and I try and seduce her, she might reject me, but I'm as guilty as I would be had I done the deed. If I plan to murder someone and the situation doesn't arise, the fact that the murder didn't take place doesn't make me any less guilty.

I don't think it's the same as just sitting at home imagining seducing Mrs. Jones next door* or murdering Mr. Jones with no real intention.


* As has been mentioned, this would come under coveting, I believe.

Didn't mean to be rude to you, sorry.

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

No no, I didn't think you'd been rude to me, actually my friend

Yeah I get that when two people feel strongly about a subject and feel that the other person is refusing to understand the view it can frustrate them... I was kind of throwing that comment out there in the hope that perhaps it will help mediate, perhaps by making people consciously aware that it's happening because they may not have noticed before. There's no reasons why we can't all disagree like crazy but still walk away as friends or friendly acquaintances or whatever an adequate term might be for the relationship between forum members... I personally enjoy reading every opinion on scripture and scripture even though I disagree with most, not to be contrary but because I am not the target audience of the SOP, this section only CLOSEST represents my views when compared to the rest of the board so it's natural that I won't agree with you all, and among you a lot of you disagree, but it would be boring if we all came here and posted "Yeah, I agree" to everything, we need opposing views to spark a reason to delve into scripture and see who is right and why, we all give each other food for thought. That's just my 2c but I wasn't specifically pointing any fingers