Did Jesus Change the Law or Not?

[pat34lee]

With or without the phrase it still means the same thing.

...and no, it wasn't "added by anti-law Christians"...if you think it was, please provide their names, the exact date that the addition allegedly occurred and explain why there was no outcry or even passing comment about such tampering with the Word- and then explain why God would allow it.

However, if you are sensible and wish to retract the comment as mere hyperbole and simply and calmly state that there is a textual variant that really has no theological bearing on the text than that would be a far more credible statement.

"Again consider the context, but in this case the social context. This discussion took place in a social and historical context different than our own. Language and practice were based on the Word of God. For instance, their holidays were those days set apart in the Bible for special observance, not ours. Their property rights were those of the Bible, not ours. Likewise, only those things that are not taw-may ("defiled", "unclean") were considered food, everything else was not. Reading Mark 7:19 as they would have, it means,
"Thus He declared all things-given-by- God-as food to be clean, regardless of ritual hand washing."
For the sake of clarity, these translators insert a phrase that never appears in the Greek: "Thus He declared."
http://jesusisajew.org/Short/MK7V19.php

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

Torah is forever, if someone claiming to be the messiah tried to change it he would instantly disqualify himself from messiahship.

He came to correct us in, teach and proclaim the Torah, not destroy it. Not a jot or tittle will pass from the law OR the prophets until EVERYTHING they contain has come to pass.

No where does Yeshua/Jesus once even hit, let alone directly state that the law will be changed, the "old covenant" (ETERNAL covenant) would be gone or made obsolete, or that his death was a human sacrifice, which many theologies try to claim is the cause of the removal (sometimes referred to as a "fulfilment") of the law. He says that anyone who even teaches against the very least, smallest of commandments would be called least, smallest in heaven.
James added that anyone attempting to be a teacher would be held to a stricter accountability because they are responsive for what people understand from what they teach. That shows that anyone teaching anything that is understood by many to mean that the law, any of it, even the slightest commandment, is abolished that person would have no importance, pretty much. Yeshua cannot ever be shown to be teaching anything that means that, without someone intentionally coming along and taking certain translations of those verses and teaching them out of context through a Christian theological filter.

This doesn't mean that we should be freaking out about the fact that we aren't sacrificing bulls left right and centre, this is a common misconception that atheists attempt to throw into the pot, however they miss the fact that in order to validate the sacrificial system, we require a holy of holies (which requires the Temple and/or the ark of the covenant) and many of the duties must be performed on our behalf by Levitical priests, and while some people believe that they can identify the Levites, we have no way to know for certain. Not living under conditions in which we can live by every law is not a sin, we CANNOT possibly do it in a proper way, we are not refusing, we are not rebelling, therefore we are not in transgression. As Deuteronomy warned our ancestors, we are living under gentile rule under gentile conditions as a punishment and part of that is being unable to fully realise our heritage until we all finally return home and the messiah returns to rebuild the Temple. Until then, we do the best we can in our situation, just because we can't take an unblemished calf to the high priest doesn't mean we can't give to someone who is hungry, for example.

That's my understanding, there might be people here that disagree with some or all of the points that I've written, but I think that regardless of that, this being the "Messianic Jewish" section, everyone will agree that it is pretty much an objective fact that the commandments are still in effect and unchanged, regardless of how we subjectively understand the situation that we are in today.

 

[yonah_mishael]

It's actually a tenant of Judaism that the Messiah will teach us the correct way to interpret the Torah - and even change the way that we've been doing things. After all, the supernal Torah is written with no spaces between the letters, no verse markings. The idea is that the Torah's words will be re-connected in new ways, to create new verses and new sentences, which the Messiah will teach - and the message may indeed be quite different from how we've understood it until now.

What would bind Jesus to the traditional understanding of the Torah, if he were the Messiah?

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

He brought people back to the Torah (as recorded in the Pentateuch) after people had been deceived into following manmade traditions and harsh rules imposed by religious leaders, and taught how Torah was MEANT to be kept, he spoke of how marriage was supposed to only be one man and one woman, provisions were made for men with many wives but it wasn't meant to be so. He also explained the way divorce is supposed to be handled and the reasons why provisions were made for extreme circumstances due to the way we are.v He stopped people observing the solemn, oppressive version of the shabbat and taught people that it is a lovely day to relax in peace, not to be scared of doing anything that could elicit an accusation of labouring, such as walking too many steps, holding more than the weight of two jugs of milk or picking some food to eat. I would say that in respect of this, he fulfilled the tenant that you refer to pretty much to the T.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Oh, Sabbath is "a lovely day to relax in peace." The Torah teaches us that God is a fearful King, and if you violate the Sabbath you are to be put to death. I'm sure that those who wanted to gather fire wood on Sabbath so that they could feel warm and comfortable (even if they didn't intend to light the fire on Sabbath itself) surely didn't think that Sabbath worked out to be such a nice day to "do their own will."

I don't think you have a proper understanding of the Pentateuch if this is the way that you come away from this text.

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

Oh well, I'm glad that I not under any obligation to keep the Torah in any way that satisfies you.

 

[Soyeong]

It's actually a tenant of Judaism that the Messiah will teach us the correct way to interpret the Torah - and even change the way that we've been doing things. After all, the supernal Torah is written with no spaces between the letters, no verse markings. The idea is that the Torah's words will be re-connected in new ways, to create new verses and new sentences, which the Messiah will teach - and the message may indeed be quite different from how we've understood it until now.

What would bind Jesus to the traditional understanding of the Torah, if he were the Messiah?

The Torah is in accordance with God's character, so Messiah will act in accordance with the Torah, but whether that is in accordance with how the Torah is understood by us is another issue. However, it was Messiah's intention to bring people into true Torah observance when he said that he came to fulfill the law.

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

^ Spot on!

 

[yonah_mishael]

Oh well, I'm glad that I not under any obligation to keep the Torah in any way that satisfies you.

Hey, I'm not the one who would put people to death for breaking the Law. For that, you should look to the Torah itself. Do you really never see "he shall surely be put to death" in the Torah? Really?

The Talmudic expression for "shall surely be put to death" is חייב מיתה chayav mitah "owes [the] death [penalty]."

 

[yonah_mishael]

doubled

 

[yonah_mishael]

The Torah is in accordance with God's character, so Messiah will act in accordance with the Torah, but whether that is in accordance with how the Torah is understood by us is another issue. However, it was Messiah's intention to bring people into true Torah observance when he said that he came to fulfill the law.

^ Spot on!

I don't understand how what you've just said either contradicts or adds to what I already wrote.

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

Oh, Sabbath is "a lovely day to relax in peace." The Torah teaches us that God is a fearful King, and if you violate the Sabbath you are to be put to death. I'm sure that those who wanted to gather fire wood on Sabbath so that they could feel warm and comfortable (even if they didn't intend to light the fire on Sabbath itself) surely didn't think that Sabbath worked out to be such a nice day to "do their own will."

I don't think you have a proper understanding of the Pentateuch if this is the way that you come away from this text.

He was gathering sticks/wood to build an alter unto a false god.

That is why he was stoned to death.

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

Hey, I'm not the one who would put people to death for breaking the Law. For that, you should look to the Torah itself. Do you really never see "he shall surely be put to death" in the Torah? Really?

The Talmudic expression for "shall surely be put to death" is חייב מיתה chayav mitah "owes [the] death [penalty]."

Not for lifting more than two jugs of milk or picking a piece of fruit (or corn) from a plant.

It's supposed to be a restful day, whatever is your labour during the week should be finished by the sabbath so that you can relax, it shouldn't be a day that you are restricted to excruciating boredom. People who follow the overly strict rules today believe that they can't even push a light switch and equate that to being labour, it isn't. A laborious job is collecting firewood, farming, lifting heavy objects such as bricks and machinery, etc, or in the modern times, perhaps working a shift in a store, working in an office grinding over facts and figures, writing an essay for university etc.
Those are things that every man (inclusive of both sexes) and every man that serves him NEEDS a break from. So we have that day to enjoy both with our families AND with the scriptures, so we never have an excuse to be estranged from our loved ones, in particular our beloved God, and it ensures that we never get overworked. If people also choose to refrain from doing more, such as using electrical gadgets or carrying a certain amount of food or drink etc, there's nothing wrong with that, they're being EXTRA careful to please the God of Israel, but since it's their own prerogative to do so they shouldn't try to push that on others or expect more glory because they believe they "do it better", the important aspect is to want to obey and to do your best to obey. If additionally to the Torah you follow the Talmud strictly then that's your choice but Yeshua showed us that Sabbath isn't set out to be observed in that very strict way which for some people IS oppressive (maybe not for everyone, I wouldn't suffer if I were to keep it that way, I just know that I don't need to and wouldn't choose to do so) and so these stricter ways that some people may choose to obey shouldn't be enforced on others, or used to make people feel like they aren't keeping the commandment well because others are doing it "better" than they are.

If you keep it so strictly, I commend your diligence but I don't share your view that that is how Sabbath SHOULD be kept, and death is owed to he who doesn't keep it that way. Death is meant for the Israelite who completely rejects the Sabbath and goes about his work or puts others to work. Of course I share your sentiment that we shouldn't go out to stone everyone working a shift on a Saturday afternoon, but in a strictly Israelite environment when everyone knows Torah and there's no excuse, that is the ascribed punishment, that also, of I agree with. Our role now is not to kill our brothers deceived into secular beliefs while living among the nations but to salt the Earth and show people the true way and the true God by leading a good example.

 

[yonah_mishael]

He was gathering sticks/wood to build an alter unto a false god.

That is why he was stoned to death.

Get that from the text of the Torah, did you?

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

He was gathering sticks/wood to build an alter unto a false god.

That is why he was stoned to death.

That's an interesting response, where do you get that from? I've never heard that before.

I figured it's because in the desert one of the main jobs a man (inclusive of both sexes) had was to work gathering wood for cooking, building, keeping warm during the cold nights etc and so a man who gathers sticks on the sabbath is rejecting the Sabbath and going about his six-daily labour. I'm interested in hearing where you got your response from though, it never crossed my mind TBH.

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

Get that from the text of the Torah, did you?

Sure did, cause I know how to read.

You read it too.

The Law of Tassels

37And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 38Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: 39And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring: 40That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. 41I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.


Tzitizt was a direct result of the man WHORING. Whoring is always a seeking after other gods. From Yah's perspective it is adultery. The very adultery which caused Yah to divorce Israel.
We are still divorced, BTW, and out of covenant, Judah too.

 

[Pentateuch and Yeshua]

Interesting theory, sure, but it's not explicitly stated, so it can't really be stated as fact.

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

Explain why people were put to death.

There is a very good reason for it, explain.


Actually, at that time there were two reasons, what were they?

 

[Sheeple Shepherd]

Reason one, to keep Israel and Judah righteous, to keep us from whoring.

Reason two, at the time the Messiah had not yet been born, his lineage needed to be fulfilled.

I recommend that you watch this teaching, I have no affiliation with this teacher but the teaching itself is superb.
Here is part III, I and II need to be watched even though it's a little boring, lays the foundation.
Will answer some of your questions.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Sure did, cause I know how to read.

You read it too.

The Law of Tassels

37And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 38Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: 39And it shall be unto you for a fringe, that ye may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the LORD, and do them; and that ye seek not after your own heart and your own eyes, after which ye use to go a whoring: 40That ye may remember, and do all my commandments, and be holy unto your God. 41I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: I am the LORD your God.


Tzitizt was a direct result of the man WHORING. Whoring is always a seeking after other gods. From Yah's perspective it is adultery. The very adultery which caused Yah to divorce Israel.
We are still divorced, BTW, and out of covenant, Judah too.

I was talking about collecting kindle on Shabbat - a specific instance in the Torah. I wasn't talking about tsitsit. You're making a connection that I didn't make, and such a connection isn't in the Torah itself. Look at Numbers 15:32-36.