Did God create evil?

[Viren]

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I Yehovah do all these things” — Isaiah 45:7 (KJV with Hebrew name restored)

It's amazing how the Scriptures can answer our questions, don't you think?

Shalom,
David

Is the opposite of peace moral evil? The word translated as evil can also mean disaster. The NIV translation interprets that passage as "I create prosperity and create disaster" which fit with other scripture of the Lord giving and taking away.

 

[Chriliman]

Don't we ALL make the same claim though? And don't ALL churches 'claim' to believe the bible, and yet we have 666 different denominations who don't agree with each other based upon 'the bible'. There is a religious spirit promoting 'the false' in all '-isms', whether they be Hindu-ism, Budda-ism or denominational-ism.

Let me leave you with a quote from Martin Luther in a letter to Hansen Von Rechenberg in 1522: "God forbid that I should limit the time of acquiring faith to the present life. In the depth of the Divine mercy there may be opportunity to win it in the future."

The truth here is that neither of us really knows what happens after death because we're both still alive. Let's at least agree to diligently seek the Lord's calling and hope to glorify Him in all we do.

God bless!

 

[Hillsage]

The truth here is that neither of us really knows what happens after death because we're both still alive. Let's at least agree to diligently seek the Lord's calling and hope to glorify Him in all we do.

God bless!

and

God be on ya Chriliman.

 

[2KnowHim]

how can the eternal "continuation" of a process means as a qualifier that a process may end in one particular case, but a different process having the same qualifier never ends?

Because Life and Death to God, is different than what most men think they are.
When God destroys or puts to death the wickedness in a man, the "Results" of that "process" that it took to accomplish it, is "Permanent", which in turn brings Life which is also "Permanent".
This is what is meant by .....I kill and make alive Deut. 32:39
But the "process" that it takes to accomplish this death in a person is limited to an age or time.

There is no sense in which one can claim a process can be described a "continuing" yet mean for any particular part going through the process there is always an end point for that part. That is not the description of a "continuing" process. So the fact we have changed word usage to describe our two possible eternal fates does not "solve" your problem. You are still claiming we (or Jesus) can use the same qualifier to describe a "process" and have that qualifier mean opposing things. Changing the word did not help, it still makes no sense at all.

When someone takes a shower they are "continuing" to wash as long as it takes to be clean, but once they are, the "process" of bathing stops, but the "Results" is a clean body. And even this example fails to compare to The Fire that cleanses us.
When a person washes to get clean, eventually we have to repeat the process, but when God does something it is Permanent.
Under Law a person had to continually wash and offer sacrifices because they could never get rid of their sin conscientiousness, but Christ did it once for all. Heb.10:-

 

[2KnowHim]

I don't think he would agree. In his mind God is incapable of having someone in a "place" eternally where the torment experience is directly proportional to unaccounted evil committed in this life.

Please explain to me how you think that the life span of a man is what you call "directly proportional" to eternal torment.
An average life is what, probably 75 maybe, but yet you call it justice for someone to be punished for all eternity for sin they could only have committed for a matter of 70 yrs. That makes no sense.

 

[MaxR1996]

God created everything and gave everything free will, and everything was perfect for a while until lucifer plotted and sinned against God out of pride and was kicked out of heaven. Then God made humans and everything was perfect and they were good until they disobeyed him. So it is our own free will to do wrong that brings evil into the world, evil is simply separation from God, and God gives us the right to do that, if he didn't we would be slaves.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Because Life and Death to God, is different than what most men think they are.
When God destroys or puts to death the wickedness in a man, the "Results" of that "process" that it took to accomplish it, is "Permanent", which in turn brings Life which is also "Permanent".
This is what is meant by .....I kill and make alive Deut. 32:39
But the "process" that it takes to accomplish this death in a person is limited to an age or time.



When someone takes a shower they are "continuing" to wash as long as it takes to be clean, but once they are, the "process" of bathing stops, but the "Results" is a clean body. And even this example fails to compare to The Fire that cleanses us.
When a person washes to get clean, eventually we have to repeat the process, but when God does something it is Permanent.
Under Law a person had to continually wash and offer sacrifices because they could never get rid of their sin conscientiousness, but Christ did it once for all. Heb.10:-

You cannot answer a question about your premise by simply restating the premise a different way. It does not matter that one views and labels differently God's treatment of man in the final eternal differences between only two possible fates. And talk of permanence is irrelevant as both our views require a permanence in the next life. And as I/we were not talking about a permanence of any "salvation" process going on in this life, our differences there should not enter into the discussion about what happens in the next. In the view of many Christians we are never clean enough to enter Heaven (fully in His Presence) during this life. The whole incomplete thought of Purgatory is an expression of the need for everyone Heaven bound needing a rinse before continuing onward and upward. A few people are demonstrated in the Bible as coming so close they walked straight in. But even Moses is depicted as needing to "remove his filth" before treading on "Holy Ground".

Are we really going to claim as you did about the Apostles following God for three years, that Moses at that point was not following God either?

And these questions are exactly the point about any heresy and the devastating effects holding a heresy to be true can have on Christian faith.

I know you are sincere in your faith. I also know you have clearly expressed that you no longer sin and I accept that you are sincere in that as well. I even defended you by pointing out that many Christians would have to agree that people like Elijah and Enoch could not be depicted as they are at the end of their journey here if they were still actively sinning. The RCC would take the same thought to the Mother of God's entire life - and for many good reasons. But imagining Good as able to create to evil - is the same as someone here saying it is possible for you to be Good(not sinning would be Holy as He is Holy - Good) but also sin. As you said yourself, it is not possible to serve two masters. The ideas are not compatible. Not for you as you freely admit, but also not for God who we say "is Good". And so your own position of being Holy (only Good) yourself refutes the idea that you think you could be so and still do "not good". God does not do "not Good" because it is incompatible with what He is - All Good.

And BTW that is also why most of us do not believe we remain Holy, even after taking a very thorough and complete bath/shower (as the RCC views Baptism). So while I must admit it because I am Catholic and hold to what the Church teaches as Truth, that we can be Holy as He is Holy, I do not have to insist we all stay that way. We do not typically remain that way because we retain the freedom of choice and just like Saint Paul, also an Apostles following Jesus, said we are in this life constantly at war internally with "our members". There would be no war if it true the battle against sin was over for us. And clearly is still a war and a battle we can lose, as indicated by the same Apostles discussions about the need for Christians to keep running a GOOD race until the end because to give up can only mean one has lost the prize at the end - which he said is offered only to those who finish that GOOD race. Which he said to runners who are already Christians (Baptized).

 

[Hillsage]

God created everything and gave everything free will, and everything was perfect for a while until lucifer plotted and sinned against God out of pride and was kicked out of heaven. Then God made humans and everything was perfect and they were good until they disobeyed him. So it is our own free will to do wrong that brings evil into the world, evil is simply separation from God, and God gives us the right to do that, if he didn't we would be slaves.

If everything was 'created perfect' then why did God say;

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

So did God goof when he made Adam? Or do we possibly goof by saying everything was created perfect?

 

[Hillsage]

Please explain to me how you think that the life span of a man is what you call "directly proportional" to eternal torment.
An average life is what, probably 75 maybe, but yet you call it justice for someone to be punished for all eternity for sin they could only have committed for a matter of 70 yrs. That makes no sense.

When I first read this post, I thought to myself 'O boy, this answer ought to be 'good' and, sadly, it was. Isn't it amazing what man can justify when checking our ability to 'judge what is right', at the door.

LUK 12:57 "And why do you not judge for yourselves what is right?

 

[MaxR1996]

If everything was 'created perfect' then why did God say;

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

So did God goof when he made Adam? Or do we possibly goof by saying everything was created perfect?

I think you know what I meant.

Sin was not brought into the world.

Just because God hadn't finished creating ( adding a woman ), doesn't mean there was an imperfection it means he was still working on Earth.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Please explain to me how you think that the life span of a man is what you call "directly proportional" to eternal torment.
An average life is what, probably 75 maybe, but yet you call it justice for someone to be punished for all eternity for sin they could only have committed for a matter of 70 yrs. That makes no sense.

If we can imagine holding someone's toe close enough to a candle to get his attention for the rest of his life compared to holding the same candle a little closer toe of another person - then we have demonstrated the same thought - if the burning thought bothers anyone then just consider it as representing the source of whatever means used to "torment" those two people. If we considered that torment punishment, then we have imagined the same exact means of punishment that could be applied for the exact same period as far as a lifetime is concerned but we imagined it with varying degree of torment simply by imagining one person had the candle closer to their skin. If we imagined both persons living the exact same amount of time after the candles are lit, then they are indeed both receiving the same punishment and only the degree varies. There is no reason to think the same thought could not apply to eternity. All we would be doing is moving the location of the two physical bodies that have already in this world experienced the same punishment unequally in a temporal realm and moved them to another eternal realm.

If we can imagine that much in our physical world, then it should not be that difficult to imagine it possible to have two people in the same eternal state but at any given point in time, even if they were thrown in "the pit" together, still be able to say the total experience of being in that state MUST NOT be equal for both persons. So it is not like saying being "thrown into Hell" means all the damned get equal treatment eternally any more than we could say those granted Glory in Heaven are all getting equal treatment. It would be very difficult to imagine there being any Justice in either Hell or Heaven otherwise because the lives we have lived here and for which we are judged at the beginning of the next life are not equal. So even in the concept of Heaven we have Jesus and the Apostles talking about levels of rewards. Such thoughts are absolutely righteous and Just. To think on the flip side that everyone on the flip side has earned equal punishment would unrighteous and injust.

Same thought extends to the idea that some folks seem to do whatever these please with no consequence and live the life of Riley. While others attempting to and doing the exact things suffer the consequences of each or many of their acts. So if we imagined those two people having both committed exactly all the same and exact same number of sins (and both living an entire life turning away from God) then a few things should be clear if we imagine them being judged in the next life for those identically wicked lives. Only one of those the two has experienced some degree of Justice already during this life. The other has experienced zero Justice. So if we demand that because they both did exactly the same and exactly the same number of each sin they both get the exact same treatment, then the scales of Justice are left with a surplus punishment. Essentially one of the two experiences an injustice in getting more for doing the exact thing the other did.

So if there is to be Justice for the injustice which occurs now in our reality and we know people die without having experiencing Justice for what they did (or failed to do), then what occurs in the next life must rectify that imbalance and not a bit more. Otherwise injustice would never end either in this life or the next. We do not have to imagine punishment ending to imagine otherwise some people are getting more than they should - it would be a matter of degree. Levels of Hell if you will, just as we can conceive (and there Justly should be) levels of Heaven.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If everything was 'created perfect' then why did God say;

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

So did God goof when he made Adam? Or do we possibly goof by saying everything was created perfect?

Rich treasures indeed coming from some one unable to answer how it is they believe Good can do evil yet remain Good.

 

[2KnowHim]

So if there is to be Justice for the injustice which occurs now in our reality and we know people die without having experiencing Justice for what they did (or failed to do), then what occurs in the next life must rectify that imbalance and not a bit more. Otherwise injustice would never end either in this life or the next. We do not have to imagine punishment ending to imagine otherwise some people are getting more than they should - it would be a matter of degree. Levels of Hell if you will, just as we can conceive (and there Justly should be) levels of Heaven.

This is the most twisted thinking I've ever run across.
What you don't seem to understand Dr. is That Jesus became the Judgement of God and condemned Sin in the flesh for all mankind. So when you speak of Justice then you'd better speak of the price Jesus paid on that cross.

If God sees any sin today, then He would have to overlook the Sacrifice of His Son, and I'm sorry but that is not possible.
But according to what you just said here in this statement only proves the scriptures to be truth.
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Let me ask you something Dr. can you forgive Hitler, Nero, Manson? What if your own child was to commit murder and sentenced to prison, could you forgive them? Or would you be satisfied with knowing that they would spend an eternity in tormenting fire? Would that be sufficient punishment?

 

[2KnowHim]

God created everything and gave everything free will, and everything was perfect for a while until lucifer plotted and sinned against God out of pride and was kicked out of heaven. Then God made humans and everything was perfect and they were good until they disobeyed him. So it is our own free will to do wrong that brings evil into the world, evil is simply separation from God, and God gives us the right to do that, if he didn't we would be slaves.

Perfection cannot sin, just look at Christ Jesus, He is The Perfection of God, Did He have free will? Could He have sinned? No in all these things, He is called "Son". We were never Perfect, we were never Good, there is only One who is Good and that is God.

All you're doing is mimicking something you've been taught by men's doctrines, I can promise you it is not from The Spirit.
You said "evil is separation from God", but the scriptures say...Deliberate and stubborn unruliness and resistance to guidance or discipline ..."iniquity".... has separated between you and your God, and your sin has hid His face from you that He would not hear. There is a difference.

 

[2KnowHim]

Rich treasures indeed coming from some one unable to answer how it is they believe Good can do evil yet remain Good.

Yes he has, and so have many others, you shouldn't blame us that you cannot hear or receive what we say.
You just don't like the answers that are given. And just because you don't understand how a Good God could create evil, doesn't mean that He can't either. Because if you really wanted to know how, all you would have to do is ask Him in faith and He would show you.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

This is the most twisted thinking I've ever run across.
What you don't seem to understand Dr. is That Jesus became the Judgement of God and condemned Sin in the flesh for all mankind. So when you speak of Justice then you'd better speak of the price Jesus paid on that cross.

If God sees any sin today, then He would have to overlook the Sacrifice of His Son, and I'm sorry but that is not possible.
But according to what you just said here in this statement only proves the scriptures to be truth.
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Let me ask you something Dr. can you forgive Hitler, Nero, Manson? What if your own child was to commit murder and sentenced to prison, could you forgive them? Or would you be satisfied with knowing that they would spend an eternity in tormenting fire? Would that be sufficient punishment?

I do think of the cost actually. And that cost is the only way we escape the condemnation of our sins. The Power of the Love He has for us and the Grace that it provides is the only way we can become and remain Holy. Sinning, any sinning is a rejection of that Grace. We cannot claim to have something and reject it too. Which sort of what you and Jesus expressed about a house divided. Think about it. A house that is filthy that is simply covered with a clean coat of pain may look nice to us but is still going to stink because it remains filthy. We do not remain filthy in a proper Baptism. We do not remain filthy in a proper Reconciliation. So there would be nothing in those instances for God to "overlook". We can however get dirty again and He will forgive us just as He is shown having forgiven Saint Peter after having done the very thing He said would get Peter denied before God (IOW set to Hell).

God sees everything we do and He overlooks nothing including what we are thinking - which is how thoughts become sins as He clearly mentioned. As I said before, the only reason we are not all condemned when we die (that we die at all is because of sin that has never been "overlooked") is because the displeasure to God's nostrils of total stinking mess of the combined sins of everyone who has or ever will exist is infinitely exceeded by the INFINITE PLEASURE God is given from the PERFECT and INFINITE LOVE Jesus expressed for us all. (And no God does not have a nose). That amount of Love (infinite) is also why what He did is ABLE to restore us to His Good Grace. In our Baptism we are made Holy in the washing away by the Power of the Love of His Deed all our prior sins. Same Power applied when ever we keep seeing to clean us up again through Reconciliation (whether we call it that or not). And if we continue that good race to the end, the same Power that enables to stand as humans (body and soul) in the Presence of God just as Adam and Eve first could.

So no, my belief has God overlooking nothing. Some Christians do have Him overlooking our sins. Am unclear how to reconcile that thought with there being actual forgiveness rather than just a coverup - like the stinky freshly painted filthy house. We can be new right now.
I can forgive people that have done something wrong to me yes. And in that case if I do it properly, that act is not me overlooking or forgetting what they did. That act on my part is no longer treating them the way I did before I forgave them. I still see them and I still can see in my mind what they did and I don't have to forget and I don't have to give a known thief the keys to my safety deposit box as he lost that right when he stole from me - but if I forgive him I can still treat him with the love I have for myself - which does not mean I freely give him those keys back - he would have to re-earn that trust and that has nothing to do with my love for him or forgiveness.
Asking whether God can forgive or not is not the proper question. Of course He can and of course He made it possible for us to be fully restored to Him - but forgiving us is only the first step of that restoration and a step He indicates we must go through in this life as it is too late to be sorry in the next life. He and His Apostles taught that Christians could also fail and because of that require forgiveness of sins again, and again. They even spoke of "mortal sins" which is a distinction made ONLY when talking to Christians sinning. And such a distinction can only be understood as the death of our relationship with Him - the relationship we had is dead because of a mortal sin we committed - which means we are not in the same sorry state with Him as we were before our Baptism.

Anyway, sorry you think that the idea God can, should and will one day restore Justice to this universe is twisted. To me it is required if we believe God is Just and twisted to think He could be Just and not restore the balance lost as a result of sin.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes he has, and so have many others, you shouldn't blame us that you cannot hear or receive what we say.
You just don't like the answers that are given. And just because you don't understand how a Good God could create evil, doesn't mean that He can't either. Because if you really wanted to know how, all you would have to do is ask Him in faith and He would show you.

Am hearing what you say and rejecting it. I know this because I can repeat it back to you in my own words, even though typically a lot of you want to reject the reality of what you say. Most of you cannot even fully explain why you believe what you do or why much of it when expanded to our whole reality can make any sense at all. So it is not a matter of me just not likely your answers and so rejecting them. So the position is really that saying these things sounds better to me than saying something else. Which is nice, but does not help in these discussion.

I can reject most of this as heresy because I know that is what it is because the Church has declared it so. You can't accept that. And if I appeal to Scripture to show how the Church would support that a particular view is a heresy you will object that the Church has the right to correctly explain Scripture to us and so we can make it say whatever works for us. So that pretty much leaves me with nothing but logic as being something you cannot object to if I can show your position to be illogical. Which is why I typically focus in doing just and only that.
I can express your view - Good creates evil because a verse says so. God is Good. Creating is an action. Someone creating tea pots is "doing" pot making. So despite your denial it really does come down to your position is that God does evil, which is logically incompatible with saying God is Good. And that does not mean I am saying the verse quoted is wrong. NO. I am saying the verse does not mean what you claim it means.
Can you state my view please.

 

[2KnowHim]

Can you state my view please.

Yes I can,....
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

 

[jugghead]

Our commission as Christians is to raise others up into the love of Christ NOT lower others down into the fear of death

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes I can,....
Mar 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

LOL, thought so. No, I know you can attempt it but I have my doubts you can get it right. Which is sort of required if you are going to make attacks on it that are not charges at ugly old windmill.