Denomination Wars

[ChristsSoldier115]

Well, then, let me ask a slightly different question. Do you think that this perceived tendency to adapt is good for the faith, or is it that this perverts or wrongly fragments it?

I guess that depends on how much they deviant from the "core Christianity"[ie Nicean creed as the baseline]


if they use coconut milk and ritz crackers for communion is it invalid?

 

[Rhamiel]

The office of papacy is anti-Christ. No individual pope has ever been "the" anti-Christ. We don't view them fondly at all, though.

the view that the Anti-Christ is an office is not a Biblical view

the Bible talks about the Anti-Christ as a spirit or as an individual (if you see the terms Man of Lawlessness and Anti-Christ and The Beast as interchangeable)

 

[Tangible]

as I read for my global studies course it points out one universal truth: Christ's message is not culturally bound or restricted by the same culture. Are different denominations merely the local contextualization of Christ's universal message made relevant to them?

If so, how do you explain how Lutheran churches (very Northern European in culture) are gaining wide adherence in Africa and Madagascar and the fact that Pentecostalism (which shares many similarities with religions of African origin) is so widely accepted by North Americans of European descent and South and Central Americans of blended American and European descent?

 

[Tangible]

if they use coconut milk and ritz crackers for communion is it invalid?

Ritz crackers, yes (though not really desirable) but coconut milk, no. Wheat bread and grape wine is what Christ had in front of him when he said "Do this ..."

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

If so, how do you explain how Lutheran churches (very Northern European in culture) are gaining wide adherence in Africa and Madagascar and the fact that Pentecostalism (which shares many similarities with religions of African origin) is so widely accepted by North Americans of European descent and South and Central Americans of blended American and European descent?

Just a theory man, lot i asked it because i was curious. I guess it wasn't a good theory.

 

[Tangible]

Just a theory man, lot i asked it because i was curious. I guess it wasn't a good theory.

LOL. I know the feeling.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Including Peter?

Probably not - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Peter_VII_of_Alexandria

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Ritz crackers, yes (though not really desirable) but coconut milk, no. Wheat bread and grape wine is what Christ had in front of him when he said "Do this ..."

So people can't do communion because of their circumstances? that seems a bit restrictive. Whether you beleive it literally, becomes the body physically, or spiritually.. or both.. or it is just a ceremony to remember.. Wouldn't what you use not really matter for it? if it becomes the body literally.. who are you to limit God into what he can or cannot turn into his body?

 

[Gnarwhal]

I'm definitely tired of ignorant posts slandering the same handful of churches day in and day out. GT's become quite the cesspool because of it, and it's almost always the same denomination targeting the same denomination.

I'm also tired of the seemingly loose and selective enforcement of the Nicene Creed. It seems as though there are quite a few who get away with posting in Christian-only areas that barely affirm it, if not outright teach against it.

 

[Tangible]

So people can't do communion because of their circumstances? that seems a bit restrictive. Whether you beleive it literally, becomes the body physically, or spiritually.. or both.. or it is just a ceremony to remember.. Wouldn't what you use not really matter for it? if it becomes the body literally.. who are you to limit God into what he can or cannot turn into his body?

It's not about limiting God. It's about finding certainty in what God has actually said instead of uncertainty and speculation in something that's kinda like what God said.

 

[Rhamiel]

Just a theory man, lot i asked it because i was curious. I guess it wasn't a good theory.

hmmm,
i would not say that it was "not good"
simply not fully thought out
you have some interesting ideas
I think they just have to be refined

I remember issues about American Baptists going over to Slavic countries as missionaries with handbooks on how to convert Eastern Orthodox Christians
it did deal with culture a lot
and many EO Christians complained that these Baptists were preaching "Americanism"

but as others have pointed out, we have seen other Churches that transcend cultures (the Catholic Church being the best example of course)

I have noticed this even within the USA
some denominations have more narrow cultural norms

 

[Albion]

I guess that depends on how much they deviant from the "core Christianity"[ie Nicean creed as the baseline]


if they use coconut milk and ritz crackers for communion is it invalid?

Standard theology would answer that last one as "yes." What I thought you were getting at is the observation that is often made that Reformed theology seems to fit the temperament of the Dutch and Scottish peoples whereas Pentecostalism seems tailor-made for peoples who are already more inclined towards outward, physical expression, etc. That sort of thing.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Probably not - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Peter_VII_of_Alexandria

Wrong Peter.

 

[Root of Jesse]

I guess that depends on how much they deviant from the "core Christianity"[ie Nicean creed as the baseline]


if they use coconut milk and ritz crackers for communion is it invalid?

In matter, yes, while maybe not in spirit. There are horror stories of Catholic parishes whose communion recipe included eggs, sugar and chocolate.
To display how form and matter...matter, when the cardinal of the Philippines was encardinated, they looked at his background all the way to his baptism as a baby. They visited the parish where he was baptized, and found out he was baptized in the name of Jesus, Mary and Joseph. Because of that, every Sacrament he was given, and every Sacrament he had performed in his 40 year career was invalid. Those he baptized, those he confirmed, those he married, those he ordained. Though he just had to be baptized in the proper form and with the proper matter for them all to be valid, it was quite a horror.

 

[Root of Jesse]

In matter, yes, while maybe not in spirit. There are horror stories of Catholic parishes whose communion recipe included eggs, sugar and chocolate.
To display how form and matter...matter, when the cardinal of the Philippines was encardinated, they looked at his background all the way to his baptism as a baby. They visited the parish where he was baptized, and found out he was baptized in the name of Jesus, Mary and Joseph. Because of that, every Sacrament he was given, and every Sacrament he had performed in his 40 year career was invalid. Those he baptized, those he confirmed, those he married, those he ordained. Though he just had to be baptized in the proper form and with the proper matter for them all to be valid, it was quite a horror.

ChristsSoldier115, you'll appreciate this...in the name of Susmaryjosep...

 

[Tangible]

To display how form and matter...matter, when the cardinal of the Philippines was encardinated, they looked at his background all the way to his baptism as a baby. They visited the parish where he was baptized, and found out he was baptized in the name of Jesus, Mary and Joseph. Because of that, every Sacrament he was given, and every Sacrament he had performed in his 40 year career was invalid. Those he baptized, those he confirmed, those he married, those he ordained. Though he just had to be baptized in the proper form and with the proper matter for them all to be valid, it was quite a horror.

Would this reaction be a form of Donatism, though?

(Just wondering. I don't really know my own church would handle this, though I suspect that since the validity of the Sacraments do not depend upon the character of the minister in our tradition, but upon the Word of God, it would not be quite as big of a deal as in the RCC if one of our ministers were not baptized using the trinitarian formula.)

 

[Albion]

It's not about limiting God. It's about finding certainty in what God has actually said instead of uncertainty and speculation in something that's kinda like what God said.

More directly, it's doing what Christ said to do. It's observing the ceremony he instituted--not something sorta like it. While there may be some "wiggle room" because of changed circumstances, etc, if we can make over the whole thing, saying something like "I intend for this to be for the same purpose," then what wouldn't be acceptable to substitute?

Would this reaction be a form of Donatism, though?

(Just wondering. I don't really know my own church would handle this...

It wouldn't be Donatism, and no, I don't think your church would excuse this (if I am understanding what you're referring to correctly).

 

[Gentle Lamb]

Simple poll. There seems to be a lot of activity in GT on denominational conflicts.

Are you tired of all the posts and comments that pit one denomination against another?

By tired, I mean the same arguments get repeated over and over. No edification is going on. Neither side will be won over. There is no constructive point to them.

To me they seem only to elevate man's teaching/doctrine in one church over another.
In the end you will be saved based on belief in Jesus as your Savior, not what doctrine you know.

Does any think you will be rewarded in heaven for what doctrine you hold? Is there any scripture to defend that?

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father except through Him. Religion does not save, nor do any of the traditions. Thank God for Jesus who redeemed us at the cross. Jesus redeemed us, let's keep our focus on Him first and foremost & live as He taught us to live. Hallelujah, by His blood we are saved!

 

[Root of Jesse]

Would this reaction be a form of Donatism, though?

(Just wondering. I don't really know my own church would handle this, though I suspect that since the validity of the Sacraments do not depend upon the character of the minister in our tradition, but upon the Word of God, it would not be quite as big of a deal as in the RCC if one of our ministers were not baptized using the trinitarian formula.)

I don't think so, because Donatism says that the minister must be worthy to perform the Sacrament. It's not, in the case of the Cardinal, that the minister was unworthy. I believe that the child was sickly and was baptized in the hospital, and the use of improper formula was, in fact, innocent.
But the form is why we don't change it. Some would like it to be in the 'name of the Creator, Redeemer, and Sanctifier', but that doesn't work. We use the words Jesus gave us.

 

[Tangible]

It wouldn't be Donatism,

Not to be difficult, but why wouldn't it be Donatism?

and no, I don't think your church would excuse this (if I am understanding what you're referring to correctly).

I'm pretty certain that if a pastor were to be found to have not been properly baptized, or even not baptized though he portrayed himself as such, there would be a scandal surrounding that particular pastor and his fitness for office, but as far as the baptisms he properly performed and the Sacrament of the Altar he properly distributed, there would be no doubt that these were valid and efficacious. Lutherans always fall back on the position that it is the Word of God in the sacraments that makes them valid and effective.

Augsburg Confession, part VIII
[The Lutheran churches] condemn the Donatists, and such like, who denied it to be lawful to use the ministry of evil men in the Church, and who thought the ministry of evil men to be unprofitable and of none effect.