[deleted]

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[ZacharyB]

.
Notice how Jesus plays the super-tactful card when writing to the churches!
IMO, His letter to the Laodicean church is even tougher that the one in the OP!

Exactly the same as He taught Paul over a 17-year period in the desert regions!
Notice how Paul doesn't come out and say to the churches directly ...
sin results in eternal death!
Naw, he leaves out the eternal part, and leaves the door open to speculation!
We don'ts wants to freak out the baby Christians who love slurping their milk!
Let's let the Holy Spirit do the real down-and-dirty revealing of spiritual Truth!
To whomever, and whenever, and wherever, and however they're ready for it!

 

[sdowney717]

Revelation 3New King James Version (NKJV)
The Dead Church
3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.

Christ tells them plainly most of them are dead in this church which of course means they are unsaved and going to hell unless they repent and believe. True believers will do works worthy of repentance. To Christ, dead would mean they are spiritually dead even though appearing to be alive.

The theme here is no different from early on in
Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance,
9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.
10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

And this as well in confirmation,
Acts 26
19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision,
20 but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

Christ contrasts these dead ones with the few that have not soiled themselves with the world
Rev 3
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[sdowney717]

To be honest it is painfully obvious what Paul meant by death for saved Christians who stop obeying. People just can't handle the truth and want to nitpick at these little details to try to bend it to their will. The second death for saved Christians who fail God is milk. The people who twist these things can't even stomach the milk.

I tell you plainly your a deceived worker of Antichrist since you deny the Lord Jesus Christ and His eternal salvation to every single one of His sheep. v47 Jesus speaks with emphasis, however you deny the sound words of Christ. Everlasting life is not temporary life.

John 6
Rejected by His Own
41 The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42 And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”

43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves.
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’
Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

 

[ZacharyB]

To be honest it is painfully obvious what Paul meant by death
for saved Christians who stop obeying.

Yes, it's obvious that he didn't mean physical death.
Because Jesus doesn't go around killing people!

Stopped obeying, or never did obey anything ...
believing in Jesus and His gospel doesn't count.

 

[brotherjerry]

.
Notice how Jesus plays the super-tactful card when writing to the churches!
IMO, His letter to the Laodicean church is even tougher that the one in the OP!

Exactly the same as He taught Paul over a 17-year period in the desert regions!
Notice how Paul doesn't come out and say to the churches directly ...
sin results in eternal death!
Naw, he leaves out the eternal part, and leaves the door open to speculation!
We don'ts wants to freak out the baby Christians who love slurping their milk!
Let's let the Holy Spirit do the real down-and-dirty revealing of spiritual Truth!
To whomever, and whenever, and wherever, and however they're ready for it!

I truly love that you think that God would honestly take that sort of approach. "Salvation is easy, but lets obfuscate the concept of losing salvation" Meanwhile back in the Old Testament, we had laws coming out our ears...more do's and don'ts than we can shake a stick at...and all with the consequences of failing in those...but then wait we get to Jesus and it is a new kinder gentler God...here are some do's and don'ts but we are going to hide what happens if you fail in those...

REALLY?

Sorry but that is NOT the God of the Bible.

Funny thing is that God did not hide the concept of eternal security...My Bible has it in black and white, and even in red. No hidden meanings, no obfuscation of the word, nothing like that...pure simple truth, just like the pure simple truth of salvation in the first place.

 

[nobdysfool]

2Ti 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,...

Haven't been seeing much of that from the "I'll bet you'll lose your salvation" duo here. No, they are so smug and certain that they and they alone possess the true words, that they feel justified in insulting the rest of us, and subtly hinting that they do not consider us to be saved, and therefore not God's children, but rather heathen worthy of nothing but disdain and contempt. May it be unto them as they have unto us.

It is a truism, that what someone criticizes heavily in others is what they themselves are guilty of. Seen it play out time and time again.

 

[brotherjerry]

Not even certain if I would say it was subtle

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[brotherjerry]

So what part of Romans 8 did you miss?
Romans 8:1 "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Now that is pretty simple ain't it?
Romans 8:4 "so that the requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" Believers (as you would say) do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit
Romans 8:5 "For those who are according to the flesh (non-believers) set their minds on things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit (believers), according to the Spirit." So non-believer set their minds on the flesh, but believers set their mind according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:6 "For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace." So the unbeliever is death, the believer is life and peace.
Romans 8:7 "For the mind set on flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so," Remember...the mind set on flesh is the mind of an unbeliever as outlined in verse 4 and 5.
Romans 8:8 "and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" Again...those in the flesh are unbelievers.
Here comes some good stuff...wait for it....
Romans 8:9 "HOWEVER!".....let me here you say it "HOWEVER!"....whew what a powerful word...praise Jesus...Amen....It is so good that Paul being filled with the Spirit warned us that those that unbelievers cannot please God...But Paul tells us not to fret with this big HOWEVER right here...because now I know we believers are about to hear about us....not being in the flesh and all.
Romans 8:9 "HOWEVER, YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH BUT IN THE SPIRIT" AMEN!!! Thank you Jesus! I am not in the flesh...I am in the Spirit. But wait! there is an "if"
Romans 8:9 "HOWEVER, YOU ARE NOT IN THE FLESH BUT IN THE SPIRIT, IF INDEED THE SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN YOU."
So IF the Spirit dwells in you, then you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. If you are not in the flesh mind is not in the flesh. If your mind is not set on the flesh your are not set on death. If your mind is not set on the flesh then you are not walking according to the flesh.
But Paul does not stop there.
Romans 8:9 continued "But if ANYONE DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE DOES NOT BELONG TO HIM."
Oh wow...more power right there. "I never knew you; depart from, you who practice lawlessness"

Paul sets that up...so any reference from this point forward in this epistle of living in the flesh...that is in reference to an unbeliever. Someone who does not belong to Christ. And by Christs own words in Matthew...never belonged to Christ. If you once belonged, then Christ would have known you. But Christ said to those that claimed many great works in Christs name "I never knew you".

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[ToBeLoved]

I know you hate it but you absolutely cannot refute that death in when Romans 8 says to true Spirit-filled believers in Christ that if they live according to the flesh they will die is not the temporal physical common death of all mankind but the ever lasting spiritual death of the unsaved. You cannot say it is temporal physical common death without making the passage say something nonsensical.

O and you better be careful with the "flaming" or you might get put on penalty like me.

I'm sorry, I'[m not getting what you are trying to asy.

 

[ToBeLoved]

All these things you use need to be understood in light of the fact that there are conditions for Christians to meet, like not walking according to the flesh, that if they do not meet, they will die the second death. This is not hard to reconcile. What is hard to reconcile is trying to come at these things with the presupposition that OSAS and Faith Alone are true and then reading that into these things and actually thinking it is convincing.

Notice when Paul "us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit," he never stopped talking to the same "us," when he said, "if you live according to the flesh you will die."

Walking in the spirit is the exact opposite of walking in the flesh.

When we are walking in the spriit our eyes are focused on spiriual things, not carnal things. When we are walking in the spirit we are seeing things of eternity, rather than the things of this world

 

[brotherjerry]

All these things you use need to be understood in light of the fact that there are conditions for Christians to meet, like not walking according to the flesh, that if they do not meet, they will die the second death. This is not hard to reconcile. What is hard to reconcile is trying to come at these things with the presupposition that OSAS and Faith Alone are true and then reading that into these things and actually thinking it is convincing.

Notice when Paul "us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit," he never stopped talking to the same "us," when he said, "if you live according to the flesh you will die."

What a bunch of horse manure...really.
Paul clearly stated and defined what a believer was in Romans 8. The Spirit of Christ dwells in the believer. (vs 9)
Notice Paul says "if" and not "as long as". This clearly defines two conditions and only two conditions...believer and non-believer. Believer has Spirit of God, non-believer does not.
Paul explains in earlier verses what that means. Believers are according to the Spirit and set their mind according to the Spirit. (v5) Believers walk according to the Spirit. (v4)
Not once does Paul use phrases like "while in the Spirit", or give an example of someone who once was in the Spirit but is now in the flesh. Instead every example Paul gives shows two different direction...flesh or Spirit. And every time the flesh is in reference to the unbeliever and the Spirit is the believer.
What Paul says here in Romans is that Christians CAN'T walk in the flesh.
VS 4 "walk according to the Spirit"
VS 5 "but those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit"

Paul continues on Romans 8
vs 13 "for if you are living according to the flesh (see above meaning unbelievers), you must die; but if by the Spirit (believers) you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live." So if you are a believer you are putting to death the deeds of the body...(see above..walking and the mind).
vs 15 "for you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear AGAIN, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!'" I want you pay attention to the middle of this verse...I capped it for you. While unbelievers we had a spirit of slavery that lead to fear. Paul says we have not received that spirit AGAIN...instead being saved gives us the spirit of adoption. Paul denies that we can get the spirit of slavery again.

There is no conditionals in Romans 8 except that the Spirit of God must dwell in you. Which is received upon salvation...need me to go into those verses too? Paul talks about there in verse 15 about us being given it. Never once does Paul say that "as long as" in any of his books. Christ never says it, Peter, John, any of the others, never say it.

What they do say, just as Paul spent the entire chapter explaining...a true believer no longer has their mind on the flesh, no longer walks in the flesh, and the core of his message is that they never can again. There is no "light of conditions", that is simply not there in Romans 8, as a matter of fact Romans 8 speaks strongly against conditions.

 

[True Science]

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[True Science]

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[nobdysfool]

Not an ounce of Grace in any of this. No allowance made for God to exercise Grace on one who strays. I don't think there is a Believer who has never strayed, even a little bit, from the Path. But the "You'll shoot your eye out" crowd wants us to believe that God is a harsh taskmaster, watching for us to accidentally stick our toe across the line, so He can chop it off mercilessly. And their solution is that we must work our tails off, all so we can barely make it by the skin of our teeth. What a negative, unappealing picture of God this paints! And they won't tell those they evangelize these negative burdensome points until AFTER they believe. Beforehand, it's all "Jesus loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life", and afterward it's "You've got to watch yourself, be on your guard at all times, because just like that <snap> you could lose your salvation". In their world, eternal life isn't eternal, and the security of salvation is non-existent. they want us to believe that we have to worry every moment, work our tails off to prove to God that we are worthy, and live in fear of losing our salvation, with no possibility of gaining it back.

I don't see that in my bible. I have the joy of my salvation, and the assurance that He will never leave me or forsake me. I have the assurance that I have an advocate with the Father, my Lord Jesus, who has promised that nothing and no one can take me out of the father's hand, and that I have His spirit dwelling within me, guiding, teaching, and speaking to me as I am in communion with Him. I am free in Him, and not in chains like the negative nellies pestering us in these threads want us to believe that we must be.

 

[brotherjerry]

True Science. I see you deleted your posts.
My apologies if I did upset you. I only provided you pure verses from the Scripture that Paul wrote in Romans.

I do pray that you maintain an open heart and and open mind to those pure verses and what they say. The doctrine of conditional security puts far too much emphasis on man, when the Bible clearly teaches that man can do nothing. And the only thing that man can do, is receive the gift that is given by God's grace and not earned or kept by anything man can do.

It really is not worth getting flustered about, You have professed yourself a brother in Christ and that is how I see you. I am sure when we are in Heaven and compare our notes we will both laugh at the pettiness of some of our doctrines and theological ideals and put that behind us to give more praise to Jesus and His ultimate sacrifice and God's forgiveness for our petty ideals.