sdowney717

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2 Thessolonians 2:9-11
Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all delusion of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

It is not true that all Christians are safe in their understanding. We all must be as the Berean's were and know the truth.
Please read that chapter in context.
Paul makes the distinction between those who refuse to love the truth versus those God has chosen from the beginning to be saved.

This is simply the unsaved followers of Satan who refuse to love the truth versus the saved children of God who do love the truth.
Paul is telling the church, that God has chosen them for salvation and not for destruction.
And the strong delusion that God sends on those followers of Satan, Paul teaches is centered at the time of the revealing of the Antichrist.
2 Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Paul next explains to the church that they are not like these above who will be deceived.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14
to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

What a strong and positive affirmation that His people have by God's grace and power, been chosen to be saved, and this from the beginning of time, and to obtain everlasting consolation in the Spirit because of His love for them, and will know the truth by God's grace alone of His Son to them, WHOM NO MAN CAN KNOW APART FROM THE GRACE OF GOD TO THEM WHICH SAVES THEM.

In Paul's first letter to them, he says this also as confirmation that God did NOT APPOINT US TO WRATH BUT TO OBTAIL SALVATION THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.
1 Thessalonians 5

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.


The enemies of God despise His saving grace which enables us to believe in His Son and be saved. They add to the work of salvation Christ accomplished on the cross on behalf of the children of God for whom Christ died.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Please read that chapter in context.
Paul makes the distinction between those who refuse to love the truth versus those God has chosen from the beginning to be saved.

This is simply the unsaved followers of Satan who refuse to love the truth versus the saved children of God who do love the truth.
Paul is telling the church, that God has chosen them for salvation and not for destruction.
And the strong delusion that God sends on those followers of Satan, Paul teaches is centered at the time of the revealing of the Antichrist.
2 Thessalonians 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Paul next explains to the church that they are not like these above who will be deceived.

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14
to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

What a strong and positive affirmation that His people have by God's grace and power, been chosen to be saved, and this from the beginning of time, and to obtain everlasting consolation in the Spirit because of His love for them, and will know the truth by God's grace alone of His Son to them, WHOM NO MAN CAN KNOW APART FROM THE GRACE OF GOD TO THEM WHICH SAVES THEM.

In Paul's first letter to them, he says this also as confirmation that God did NOT APPOINT US TO WRATH BUT TO OBTAIL SALVATION THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.
1 Thessalonians 5

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

9
For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.


The enemies of God despise His saving grace which enables us to believe in His Son and be saved. They add to the work of salvation Christ accomplished on the cross on behalf of the children of God for whom Christ died.
That is to believers. He is talking about how satan will come to deceive with miracles and wonders and some who do not seek after the truth in God's Word will be deceived. Because they did not love the truth.
 
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sdowney717

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That is to believers. He is talking about how satan will come to deceive with miracles and wonders and some who do not seek after the truth in God's Word will be deceived. Because they did not love the truth.

Your saying God sends delusion on to believers, that is totally false theology.
Jesus promise is that believers will be guided into the truth.

1 John 5:18
[ Knowing the True—Rejecting the False ] We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

Satan can not touch a born of God believer as regarding their salvation. Satan's deceptions will not deceive a truly born again believer as far as them denying the true Christ and embracing a lying false Christ. The elect wont be deceived. When Christ said deceive if possible, He is saying the deception is going to be tremendously powerful coming on the world. But His elect will be saved. Christians do not perish, they have eternal life.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Your saying God sends delusion on to believers, that is totally false theology.
Jesus promise is that believers will be guided into the truth.

1 John 5:18
[ Knowing the True—Rejecting the False ] We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

Satan can not touch a born of God believer as regarding their salvation. Satan's deceptions will not deceive a truly born again believer as far as them denying the true Christ and embracing a lying false Christ. The elect wont be deceived. When Christ said deceive if possible, He is saying the deception is going to be tremendously powerful coming on the world. But His elect will be saved. Christians do not perish, they have eternal life.
God let satan touch Job.

God has said that it will happen. So know the truth of God's Word so you are not decieved.
 
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BobRyan

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You are entitled to have your own opinion in this present world/system wherein truth and error are allowed to coexist for the present time of evil. But a day is coming when wheat will be separated from chaff, and the wheat will be gathered into the barn of the Lord, but the chaff will be burned up and done away with.

Hopefully everyone agrees with that
 
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BobRyan

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Because Luther and Calvin used mere 'proof texts' to develop an entire, universal ideology of Christianity..
They were extremely well educated and utilized just as much information as the Church.

NEXT

Better to post Bible texts - read the Bible and accept what it says - I always say.

Hence the "Sola scriptura" teaching of Christ in Mark 7:6-13 and of the NT saints in Acts 17:11
 
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sdowney717

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God let satan touch Job.

God has said that it will happen. So know the truth of God's Word so you are not decieved.

2 Thessalonians 2 is contrasting the unsaved followers of the beast versus the saved followers of Christ.
In 1 John , the verse saying Satan can not touch the saved believer since they are born of God has to do with Satan can not destroy their eternal salvation in Christ. Satan can obtain permission from God to cause a saved person troubles, but also recall God told the devil he could not kill Job, Job's life was to be preserved. In the same way God will not allow Satan to take away the eternal life of a saved believer who is born of God.
Satan's followers are decieved and perish, Christ's followers Jesus says will know the truth, be set free from Sin and Satan and have eternal life.

Another way to think of God not allowing Satan to 'touch' them, has to do with contamination, Satan can not corrupt those born of God. Satan can not transfer His evil into their life making them also evil like him as they are born of God, Satan has no spiritual power or authority of any kind over them. That is why John the apostle says they do not sin, Satan has no power over those born of God.
We are translated out of the kingdom of darkness, into the kingdom of His dear Son. And of Satan Christ says he has no part in me.
 
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ToBeLoved

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2 Thessalonians 2 is contrasting the unsaved followers of the beast versus the saved followers of Christ.
In 1 John , the verse saying Satan can not touch the saved believer since they are born of God has to do with Satan can not destroy their eternal salvation in Christ. Satan can obtain permission from God to cause a saved person troubles, but also recall God told the devil he could not kill Job, Job's life was to be preserved. In the same way God will not allow Satan to take away the eternal life of a saved believer who is born of God.
Satan's followers are decieved and perish, Christ's followers Jesus says will know the truth, be set free from Sin and Satan and have eternal life.

Another way to think of God not allowing Satan to 'touch' them, has to do with contamination, Satan can not corrupt those born of God. Satan can not transfer His evil into their life making them also evil like him as they are born of God, Satan has no spiritual power or authority of any kind over them. That is why John the apostle says they do not sin, Satan has no power over those born of God.
We are translated out of the kingdom of darkness, into the kingdom of His dear Son. And of Satan Christ says he has no part in me.

No it is not. It is saying that when the man of perdition comes that many will believe him and fall away from Christ because they did not believe the truth that is in the Word of God. This is for Christians, the falling away.

Satan cannot take away our eternal life in Christ, that is true.

But satan can affect and deceive and that's what he does. To anyone who is open to that deception. Christian or non-Christian.

You are really saying two different things:

* That satan cannot touch a Christian
* Satan cannot take away eternal life

Satan can influence anyone who can be influenced. That is why we are to keep our mind on spiritual things, because satan tries to affect us through our carnal minds and desires.

You really should not be mixing these two things. It is very confusing. You should state your case for each individually.
 
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nobdysfool

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Just because someone says they're a Christian, does not mean they actually are one. Those who are drawn away after the man of perdition i.e. the antichrist, may very well be those who say they are, but have never actually been born again, and added to the Kingdom.
 
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sdowney717

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Just because someone says they're a Christian, does not mean they actually are one. Those who are drawn away after the man of perdition i.e. the antichrist, may very well be those who say they are, but have never actually been born again, and added to the Kingdom.

Exactly, in a church most definitely not all are born of God.
 
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sdowney717

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No it is not. It is saying that when the man of perdition comes that many will believe him and fall away from Christ because they did not believe the truth that is in the Word of God. This is for Christians, the falling away.

Satan cannot take away our eternal life in Christ, that is true.

But satan can affect and deceive and that's what he does. To anyone who is open to that deception. Christian or non-Christian.

You are really saying two different things:

* That satan cannot touch a Christian
* Satan cannot take away eternal life

Satan can influence anyone who can be influenced. That is why we are to keep our mind on spiritual things, because satan tries to affect us through our carnal minds and desires.

You really should not be mixing these two things. It is very confusing. You should state your case for each individually.
I already said that passage is for followers of the beast and is also for the end time deception, read that scripture in context of the eschatological timeline, it is the time of the revealing of Antichrist on the world stage, not for us today.

You must read this in context, note it says right there v8, the lawless one is that Antichrist.
v8 to the end here is ALL FUTURE, not yet happened.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This end time deception comes after the great apostasy of the 'church', but see they are apostates so are unbelievers, so are not born of God, so they are not ever been saved. All apostates have departed from the faith, but see in the church it can be said those who departed the faith never believed in Christ, they believed in something else, maybe a false Christ, maybe a false gospel. That this is referring to the end of the last days, Paul teaches us in the first few verses, saying the day of the Lord and our gathering to Him has not happened yet and will not happen until the Antichrist is revealed.

You got to fit scriptural themes in context and also compare scriptures to others to understand what this means. It is clear that those who depart the faith as John says were never of us, they are antichrists and they were in the church but not of the church. We read so many warnings to watch out for such apostates who are wolves in sheep's clothing, make no sense why people think these wolves were once His sheep.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I already said that passage is for followers of the beast and is also for the end time deception, read that scripture in context of the eschatological timeline, it is the time of the revealing of Antichrist on the world stage, not for us today.

You must read this in context, note it says right there v8, the lawless one is that Antichrist.
v8 to the end here is ALL FUTURE, not yet happened.

8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This end time deception comes after the great apostasy of the 'church', but see they are apostates so are unbelievers, so are not born of God, so they are not ever been saved. All apostates have departed from the faith, but see in the church it can be said those who departed the faith never believed in Christ, they believed in something else, maybe a false Christ, maybe a false gospel. That this is referring to the end of the last days, Paul teaches us in the first few verses, saying the day of the Lord and our gathering to Him has not happened yet and will not happen until the Antichrist is revealed.

You got to fit scriptural themes in context and also compare scriptures to others to understand what this means. It is clear that those who depart the faith as John says were never of us, they are antichrists and they were in the church but not of the church. We read so many warnings to watch out for such apostates who are wolves in sheep's clothing, make no sense why people think these wolves were once His sheep.
I'm really not going to buy into your Calvanistic beliefs. The standard Calvanistic response is 'they were never saved in the first place'. pfft.
 
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Jesus First

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So then you believe Christians can die and go to hell?

Brother "Sdowney717",

Christians are always safe and secure because they by definition believe (Matthew 24:13). There are those however, who formerly believed but have fallen away (Matthew 24:10; Luke 8:13). There is a third group who never believed. Some in this group have gone through the motions but never truly trusted in Christ.

Keep the faith in Jesus.

In Christ!
 
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sdowney717

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Brother "Sdowney717",

Christians are always safe and secure because they by definition believe (Matthew 24:13). There are those however, who formerly believed but have fallen away (Matthew 24:10; Luke 8:13). There is a third group who never believed. Some in this group have gone through the motions but never truly trusted in Christ.

Keep the faith in Jesus.

In Christ!
I have no problem with that, however these apostates are not real genuine 'Christians'.
They are following Satan not Jesus, so this demonstrates they are not born again and so have no anointing from the Holy Spirit to know the truth. Fact is Paul say they refuse to love the truth and so be saved.

People who follow Satan are not the saved elect of Christ, if your not elect then your 'faith' is in a false Christ who can not save you since obviously false Christs are not of God, their mission from Satan is to deceive and lead astray, that is to cause to depart people away from Truth. When the Spirit says that in the end times people will depart from the truth, that does not mean they were saved earlier. Heb says beware lest you have in you an evil heart of unbelief since only those who believe are saved and those who have no faith are not.

Heb 4
1 Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them;
but the word which they heard did not profit them,
not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”

And Heb 3
12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called“Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

'Holding fast your confidence to the end', simply that those who believe do hold fast their confidence to the end, they continue to believe. And those who depart the faith do not believe. This shows again they are not born of God, since that which is born of God overcomes the world.
A person can not continue in faith if they are not the good seed planted by the Son of Man.

1 John 5New King James Version (NKJV)
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

Clearly an apostle here is telling you that those born of God overcome the world.
So by logical sane understanding, those not born of God will not overcome the world and are the bad seed planted by the devil, the tares among Christ's wheat. And if they are surrounded by the truth in a church, yet depart from the faith because of an evil heart of unbelief, then they are not born of God and that must mean they never were born of God.
They would have feigned belief, but in the sight of those continuing to believe, depart in unbelief when hard times come, as the sower parable so states.

Matthew 13
The Parable of the Sower Explained
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

The question you may ask is why do they understand it?
Well a man can receive nothing unless it is given to him from heaven.
Every good and perfect gift comes down from above from the Father of Lights with whom there is no variation due to change.
Revelation knowledge of Christ comes from the Father, it is the Father who has lead those that believe to Christ, Jesus said you can not come to the Father unless the Father in heaven draw you. Man in their natural state draw back from the Light (Christ the light of the world) and do not come to Him because their deeds are evil, but he who does the truth comes to the light that their deeds may be clearly seen that they have been done in God.

John 6
34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.”

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

v39, God's will is all of those God has given to Christ as believers, Christ will lose not a single one of them.
v40 God's will is everyone who believes are granted eternal life.

John 6
61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said,“Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more.
67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

The flesh profits nothing, you are not born of the will of the flesh, not born of the will of man, if you had received Christ, you had been born of God. No natural man can receive the things of the Holy Spirit, they are old wine skins which will burst if new wine is poured into them. God must create you a new wine skin first, (regeneration first), then He pours the Holy Spirit into you (indwells you).

65 And He said,“Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

Christ then asks the 12 if they will also depart, the answer is telling!
They have understood the message from God being granted to come to Christ, the Holy Spirit has enabled them to know the truth, they confess Jesus to be the Christ.

The ones who depart from the Truth (Christ), are by Christ's admission here in v65, not been granted to come to Christ by the Father. So they are not called, chosen and therefore have no belief in Christ so show then no faith in Him.
 
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ToBeLoved

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So then you believe Christians can die and go to hell?
What are you talking about? We were talking about Calvanism and that I'm not buying into that whole round-and-round of the elect, chosen and those who are not saved not being chosen stuff. What that does is creates the 'have's' and 'have not's' in Christianity. Worst theology ever.

In Jesus Christ we ALL HAVE SALVATION. If we so choose to accept His free gift of grace by faith in His finished work on the cross.

Now how does all this mean that I believe that Christians can die and go to hell? Do explain.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Your saying God sends delusion on to believers, that is totally false theology.
Maybe read a little more thoroughly and re-read before answering.

I said that satan, the man of perdition when he comes will come with miracles, signs and wonders and much power and some who are Christians will fall away from God because they did not believe the truth in God's Word.

Man can be and is deluded by satan.

God tells us about it in His Word and that is the truth.

2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

1 John 4:3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.


Now please respond to what I did say and not what you want to read or want to take out of it. Don't put words in my mouth. Read what I said.
 
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