[deleted]

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

https://www.academia.edu/17207396/OSAS_and_Faith_Alone_Understanding_of_Romans_8_35-39_REFUTED

OP REFUTED

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

You are entitled to have your own opinion in this present world/system wherein truth and error are allowed to coexist for the present time of evil. But a day is coming when wheat will be separated from chaff, and the wheat will be gathered into the barn of the Lord, but the chaff will be burned up and done away with.

Just posting a resource for people to read isn't very inviting, hence the reason why I did the same to you. It would be better if you actually wrote something original for the thread, it would likely invoke a better response among readers.

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[bleitzel]

Could you just summarize that link in your own words? That would be very helpful, thanks!

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

Because Luther and Calvin used mere 'proof texts' to develop an entire, universal ideology of Christianity..
They were extremely well educated and utilized just as much information as the Church.

NEXT

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[bleitzel]

It is basically a refutation of how many pervert the part where Paul talks about things not being able to separate from the love of God to mean that not even we ourselves by rebellion can separate ourselves from the Law of God. But the paper shows how that Paul is not saying you sinning cannot separate you from God's love but that Paul is talking about external cause and effect things according to the context. He's talking to a heavily persecuted and trialed church and and assuring them that no matter what you are going through God loves you. Don't think just because these things are happening to you that God has forsaken you because nothing of this sort can separate us from God's love. Thus he encourages them to stand fast in their faith and fight the good fight and endure till the end in denying the flesh so that they may not give up and forfeit their hope and be damned. In the chapter tells them plainly that if they live according to the flesh they will die, but if they put to death the sinful deeds of the body through the Spirit they will live, thus God's people having eternal life is based on condition. But he encourages them saying that if they endure till the end in their faith they will receive what they hope for and will be freely given all things as heirs of the Kingdom. And if it is a hope then that means it has not yet been attained. There must still be a battle fought to inherit the blessing. The entire context of Romans 8 is utterly against the misuse of this isolated passage, and even the passage itself is clearly about external cause and effect things like persecution, tribulation, distress, famine, etc. Not about deeds the free moral agent the believer is doing not being able to separate one from God's love. Because if that was the case then if they lived according to the flesh even they would still not doe and so on. It's a great read.

Ah, well, based on your summary, I agree!

 

[True Science]

[deleted]

 

[FreeGrace2]

I'm just sharing something I found valuable in helping people to come to the truth of this issue. I know the truth already with certainty.

Simple translation: I am convinced of what I believe the passage to mean.

I would like to share information that will help others get the same as well. I don't want to hoard it for myself. Like I said, you are welcome to share your information in the public as well. I'm confident the truth will prevail and be clearly manifest to all.

I'm not interested in reading some probably long dissertation. If one can break it down to main points, I'd be happy to deal with them.

However, what should be clear in the OP passage is that Paul covered every possible scenario as not being able to separate the believer from the love of christ. The key is that even "things present and things future" can't.

So, the question is this: what is there in even the future that cannot separate one from the love of Christ? Nothing. So even the believer who apostatizes will still be loved. How is that not security? Not that the apostatizer feels secure, but he still is, nonetheless.

Further, Paul defined both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life Rom 6:23) as gifts of God and then wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How is that not eternal security?

Finally, Paul spoke of the fact that each believer has been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is promised, or pledged by God himself, and guaranteed for the day of redemption.

Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what has Paul taught here?

First, having believed, we are SEALED IN HIM (union with Christ) with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, given as a PLEDGE FOR the day of redemption of God's own possession. This seal is a PLEDGE from God.

And consider this verse:

Heb 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

So, for one to accept the view of loss of salvation, 2 things are required:

1. Either prove by exegesis that Eph 1:13,14 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do NOT teach eternal security, or

2. Accept that God DOES break His promises and pledges, which makes Him a liar. Even though Scripture SAYS that it is impossible for God to lie. Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18

 

[redleghunter]

Simple translation: I am convinced of what I believe the passage to mean.

I'm not interested in reading some probably long dissertation. If one can break it down to main points, I'd be happy to deal with them.

However, what should be clear in the OP passage is that Paul covered every possible scenario as not being able to separate the believer from the love of christ. The key is that even "things present and things future" can't.

So, the question is this: what is there in even the future that cannot separate one from the love of Christ? Nothing. So even the believer who apostatizes will still be loved. How is that not security? Not that the apostatizer feels secure, but he still is, nonetheless.

Further, Paul defined both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life Rom 6:23) as gifts of God and then wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How is that not eternal security?

Finally, Paul spoke of the fact that each believer has been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is promised, or pledged by God himself, and guaranteed for the day of redemption.

Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

So, what has Paul taught here?

First, having believed, we are SEALED IN HIM (union with Christ) with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, given as a PLEDGE FOR the day of redemption of God's own possession. This seal is a PLEDGE from God.

And consider this verse:

Heb 6:18 - so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.

So, for one to accept the view of loss of salvation, 2 things are required:

1. Either prove by exegesis that Eph 1:13,14 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5 do NOT teach eternal security, or

2. Accept that God DOES break His promises and pledges, which makes Him a liar. Even though Scripture SAYS that it is impossible for God to lie. Titus 1:2 and Heb 6:18

Excellent exposition. I would add the following as another promise:

For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
Ezekiel 36:24-27 NASB
http://bible.com/100/ezk.36.24-27.NASB

 

[brotherjerry]

FreeGrace2
Exactly!

 

[Jesus First]

However, what should be clear in the OP passage is that Paul covered every possible scenario as not being able to separate the believer from the love of christ. The key is that even "things present and things future" can't.

So, the question is this: what is there in even the future that cannot separate one from the love of Christ? Nothing. So even the believer who apostatizes will still be loved. How is that not security? Not that the apostatizer feels secure, but he still is, nonetheless.

Anyone can quote a verse out of context. So can Satan. The passage you have in mind is this one:

“Who shall separate us [who is this group to determine context?] from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?” Romans 8:35 (ESV).

Who is “us”? Is Paul writing to apostate believers who have left the faith to inform them that they have nothing to worry about, or to those in ongoing faith? He is writing to those who love God in the present. See Romans 8:28 ("for those who love God .."). The Word of God cannot be understood correctly without an examination of context.

Further, Paul defined both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life Rom 6:23) as gifts of God and then wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). How is that not eternal security?

Let's cover a few of your verses and expose the falsehood:

“and are justified [a verb that id’s an ongoing action] by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,” Romans 3:24

Who is the group that “are justified by his grace as a gift”? Verse 22 states: “ the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe [present tense; ongoing belief; so those who are justified (vs. 24) are those who “believe”]” 3:22a. To twist this to describe those who no longer believe is to be a false teacher.

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 3:23. This verse is a summary. It becomes a platter to serve false theology when the context is ignored. Who are the ones that are recipients of this free gift? The verse prior has the answer: “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.” 3:22. These (recipients of “gift of God”; verse 24) are those that “have become slaves of God”. Paul is NOT writing to state that believers can become apostate and go to heaven. A consideration of a passage’s context is paramount for an accurate understanding.

 

[Jesus First]

Finally, Paul spoke of the fact that each believer has been sealed with the Holy Spirit, which is promised, or pledged by God himself, and guaranteed for the day of redemption.

Paul clearly taught eternal security in these verses:

Eph 1:13,14 - 13InHim, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Eph 4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

2 Cor 5:5 - Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

Lets further unmask the deception. Here is a passage (of several) you twisted:

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:13-14

Who are the group above who “were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise”? Freegrace2 wants you to believe that Paul is teaching Christians that they can live “the wages of sin” and have a free gift at the same time because they were “were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise”.
Ephesians 1:1b has the answer: “To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus” So contextually Paul is writing to faithful believers and informing them that they “were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise”. The word of God only has meaning in context. In the garden Satan twisted God’s Word and then stated, “you will not die”. Satan is still using the same bag of tricks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Anyone can quote a verse out of context. So can Satan. The passage you have in mind is this one:

“Who shall separate us [who is this group to determine context?] from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?” Romans 8:35 (ESV).

Who is “us”?

The "us" are the SAME PEOPLE Paul addressed at the beginning of his letter to the Romans. Those who have believed in Christ for salvation.

Is Paul writing to apostate believers who have left the faith to inform them that they have nothing to worry about, or to those in ongoing faith?

He was writing to those who have believed.

He is writing to those who love God in the present. See Romans 8:28 ("for those who love God .."). The Word of God cannot be understood correctly without an examination of context.

It's actually more than just what's in the neighborhood. v.28 is for those who do love God. It doesn't apply to those children of God who are rebellious, obviously. However, by the time one gets to v35, Paul is back to addressing ALL believers with facts.

Let's cover a few of your verses and expose the falsehood:[/QUOT]
Oh, goody!!

“and are justified [a verb that id’s an ongoing action] by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,” Romans 3:24

Who is the group that “are justified by his grace as a gift”? Verse 22 states: “ the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe [present tense; ongoing belief; so those who are justified (vs. 24) are those who “believe”]” 3:22a. To twist this to describe those who no longer believe is to be a false teacher.

Since there are other passages that use "believe" in the aorist tense, so your narrow view is refuted by the aorist tense. Acts 16:31 and Rom 10:10 as 2 exampes. And Jesus used the present tense of "believe" in Luke 8:13, and followed that with "for a while". So, so much for your theory that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. Since Jesus noted that present tense believing doesn't mean forever, I'm believing what Jesus said.

“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Romans 3:23. This verse is a summary. It becomes a platter to serve false theology when the context is ignored. Who are the ones that are recipients of this free gift? The verse prior has the answer: “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.” 3:22. These (recipients of “gift of God”; verse 24) are those that “have become slaves of God”. Paul is NOT writing to state that believers can become apostate and go to heaven. A consideration of a passage’s context is paramount for an accurate understanding.

First, the address is 6:23, not 3:23. But I'll let that pass.

What Paul SAID in 6:23 is that eternal life is a gift, period. And we know from MANY verses how one receives that gift: faith in Christ. So, those who have believed HAVE this gift.

Jesus SAID as much in Jn 5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

So, your argument is with Jesus Himself. Those who believe HAVE the gift.

Now, for the other side of this argument: if loss of faith results in loss of the gift of eternal life, where is that clearly stated anywhere in Scripture? I've been asking this question for years of the insecurity crowd, and no one has provided any such verse. So there is no reason to believe the theory.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Lets further unmask the deception. Here is a passage (of several) you twisted:

Oh, goody!!

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:13-14

Who are the group above who “were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise”?

Believers. It says so clearly in v.13. As well, Paul defined what he meant by "us" in v.19 - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

Freegrace2 wants you to believe that Paul is teaching Christians that they can live “the wages of sin” and have a free gift at the same time because they were “were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise”.

Unless you can provide any post where I ever made such a horrific claim, I am asking for an apology for this shameful character assassination.

Those believers who do live in sin do NOT get away with it. The Bible is full of dire warnings of God's discipline.

Ephesians 1:1b has the answer: “To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus” So contextually Paul is writing to faithful believers and informing them that they “were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise”. The word of God only has meaning in context. In the garden Satan twisted God’s Word and then stated, “you will not die”. Satan is still using the same bag of tricks.

So, where does the Bible teach that unfaithful believers are unsealed, since 1:13 and 14 only mentions that they have believed?

The real twisting here is found in your posts.

 

[brotherjerry]

Absolutely FreeGrace2

Oh and JesusFirst...Justification is NOT an ongoing process...Sanctification is.
Justification is the action of declaring or making righteous in the sight of God. We cannot, nor do we, perform our own justification. That is Jesus through the shedding of His blood (Romans 5:9). That action (Past) declared all who believe (current) in Christ Jesus (Galatians 2:16).

So because Christ paid our blood debt for sin. Christ declares us righteous before God. THAT is justification.

 

[nobdysfool]

Lets further unmask the deception. Here is a passage (of several) you twisted:

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:13-14

Who are the group above who “were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise”? Freegrace2 wants you to believe that Paul is teaching Christians that they can live “the wages of sin” and have a free gift at the same time because they were “were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise”.
Ephesians 1:1b has the answer: “To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus” So contextually Paul is writing to faithful believers and informing them that they “were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise”. The word of God only has meaning in context. In the garden Satan twisted God’s Word and then stated, “you will not die”. Satan is still using the same bag of tricks.

Actually, I don't see where FG2 ever endorsed antinomianism (which is what you accuse). Don't make baseless false charges. that undermines your point and makes it of no value.

 

[Jesus First]

Absolutely FreeGrace2

Oh and JesusFirst...Justification is NOT an ongoing process...Sanctification is.
Justification is the action of declaring or making righteous in the sight of God. We cannot, nor do we, perform our own justification. That is Jesus through the shedding of His blood (Romans 5:9). That action (Past) declared all who believe (current) in Christ Jesus (Galatians 2:16).

So because Christ paid our blood debt for sin. Christ declares us righteous before God. THAT is justification.

Because God is sovereign and the Bible is God's Word, we must view the doctrine of salvation through God's eyes. Does God present salvation as a past reality for believers? The answer is yes. Does God present salvation as ongoing action and not a completed action for believers? The answer is yes. Believers can confidently affirm their past and present ongoing justification. God doesn't views salvation as a completed action; neither should we.

Further evidence comes from the word "justification" which is presented in several passages as an ongoing reality for those who continue in the faith. Consider these verses:

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified [in the present] by his grace as a gift, through the redemption [ongoing gift] that is in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 3:23).

"For we hold that one is justified [right now] by faith apart from works of the law" (Rom. 3:28)

"And to the one who does not work [to earn salvation; see prior verse] but believes [an ongoing activity] in him who justifies [ongoing] the ungodly, his faith is counted [ongoing] as righteousness" (Rom. 4:5).

"yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law [an going action] but [how:] through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." (Gal. 2:16).

"so that being justified [in the present] by his grace we MIGHT become heirs according to the hope [desired outcome] of eternal life" (Tit. 3:7).

Summary: believers were justified (declared righteous) by God when they entered the family of Gods. Believers (those in the faith) are being justified right now in the present.

Finally, a review of your proof texts is in order. Because the Bible doesn't contradict itself, what do these verses say?

"9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" Romans 5:9

The verse above states a past fact. Believers have been justified in the past. The verse doesn't state that justification is a completed action. He is your second proof text:

"16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified." Galatians 2:16

As believers (in ongoing faith) in Jesus Christ we can also state with Paul "so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ". This verse doesn't state your claim that justification is a completed action. Again, in light of the verses provided earlier, justification is an ongoing reality for those who "faith" in Jesus.
In Christ!