Defining "Sacred Tradition"

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namericanboy

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I always wondered why spiritual mysteries have to have explanations..This is a spiritual life that is walked by faith....Do I believe I am consuming an actual piece of flesh and drinking real blood when I partake , no...Do I believe that as I purify my heart to be pure before the Lord and partake of the juice/bread that Christ is somehow over, in , around and through this juice/bread and that he is present among us, yes I do..My natural mind taste juice/bread but I don't take communion as a natural act is is a spiritual one...grace and peace to you..nab
 
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Anglian

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I always wondered why spiritual mysteries have to have explanations..This is a spiritual life that is walked by faith....Do I believe I am consuming an actual piece of flesh and drinking real blood when I partake , no...Do I believe that as I purify my heart to be pure before the Lord and partake of the juice/bread that Christ is somehow over, in , around and through this juice/bread and that he is present among us, yes I do..My natural mind taste juice/bread but I don't take communion as a natural act is is a spiritual one...grace and peace to you..nab

They only 'have to have explanations' because some folk are like that, I suspect. We can just accept what Our Lord said and be fortified by having Him in us. It seems to be how the early Christians accepted this, and it is how my own Church does to this day.

peace be with you,

Anglian
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Dear Rick,

I envy you in being privy to Our Lord's real meaning. We just take what He said and accept it. Some elaborate it to explain it, some elaborate it to explain it away; best just accept what the man said.

peace,

Anglian
Greetings. The RCC did and look what they made of it in their Mass.....:angel:
 
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Anglian

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Greetings. The RCC did and look what they made of it in their Mass.....:angel:

Best just accept what the Son of Man said. We do not presume to explain it or explain it away. If He said it, He meant it - and we accept it.

peace,

Anglian
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Best just accept what the Son of Man said. We do not presume to explain it or explain it away. If He said it, He meant it - and we accept it.

peace,

Anglian
Yepperz. Don't want to end up as supper like these ones.......:thumbsup:

Reve 19:17 And I perceived one messenger standing in the sun, and he cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven, "hither! be ye being gathered! into the Supper/deipnon <1173> of the Great God. 18 That Ye may be eating fleshes of kings......[Deut 28:26/Ezekiel 39:19]
 
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Rick Otto

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quote=Anglian; Dear Rick,

I envy you in being privy to Our Lord's real meaning.
It isn't that I'm privy, it is that I'm free of religious prejudice & magical thinking.

We just take what He said and accept it.
You take what He said & make a mystery of it.
If you just accepted it, you would understand it is just a metaphor. A metaphor that communicates a powerful meaning, not a saying that is so nonsensical, repulsive, & contradictory to the scriptural injunction against ingesting blood that it must be labled a "mystery".
Some elaborate it to explain it, some elaborate it to explain it away; best just accept what the man said.

Imbuing a simple metaphor with unintended mystical meaning is elaboration, not accepting what He said. I have not "explained it away" in the least. I have not denigrated it, I have not dismissed it,... all that is bigoted presumption whether intended with malice aforethought or not.

Imagine if I had said something like, "Some trump it up into an awesome majestic mystery full of contradiction to make into something it's not; best to just accept that Jesus was yet again, as was His habit, using metaphor.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Keeping up the illusion is more important than admitting the truth.


The illusion being that Lutherans and Calvins have very different teachings on the Eucharist?

From the history I read this is one area that Martin Luther and John Calvin would not come to agreement.

So are you saying the teachings have change for both of these churches and they now have the same theology about Holy Communion, the Real Presence?
 
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JacktheCatholic

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I suppose now you will have to qualify what literally means for both the Lutheran and Calvinist because it seems the above is much to general. It appears that youre saying they agree with each other.




JTM

I agree.


We see the use of what I would call Tradition in both Lutheran and Calvinist churches that comes from their fathers, John Calvin and Martin Luther. And being that both of their fathers died with out ever reconciling on the Real Presence I would love to hear if they have come to a same theology and abandoned their Traditions.


In Christ,

Jack
 
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Rick Otto

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I always wondered why spiritual mysteries have to have explanations..This is a spiritual life that is walked by faith....Do I believe I am consuming an actual piece of flesh and drinking real blood when I partake , no...Do I believe that as I purify my heart to be pure before the Lord and partake of the juice/bread that Christ is somehow over, in , around and through this juice/bread and that he is present among us, yes I do..My natural mind taste juice/bread but I don't take communion as a natural act is is a spiritual one...grace and peace to you..nab
I always wonder why plain spiritual truths have to be mysterious.

"Over, in, around, & thru?"
Why not just represented by?
How can it be all that & not be actual & real?
Isn't the spirit actual & real?
Isn't meaning actual & real?
Can't He be sprirtualy present anyway since 2 or 3 are gathered there in His name?
Can't the actual & real meaning of the metaphorical symbols be what He, using metaphor, said they were?
Can't understanding the meaning of those symbols & participating in that memorial have life changing significance?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I always wonder why plain spiritual truths have to be mysterious.

"Over, in, around, & thru?"
Why not just represented by?
How can it be all that & not be actual & real?
Isn't the spirit actual & real?
Isn't meaning actual & real?
Can't He be sprirtualy present anyway since 2 or 3 are gathered there in His name?
Can't the actual & real meaning of the metaphorical symbols be what He, using metaphor, said they were?
Can't understanding the meaning of those symbols & participating in that memorial have life changing significance?
Ladeda.........

Luke 8:10 The yet He said "to ye it has been given to know the Mysteries of the Kingdom of the God, to the yet rests in parables, that looking no they may be beholding, and hearing no they may be understanding".

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh messenger, when-ever he may be being about to be trumpeting, also is finish/telesqh <5055> (5686) the Mystery of the God, as He brings good-news to His bond-servants, the prophets.
 
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Rick Otto

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I started looking for
"Calvin's teaching on the Eucharist"...


from: http://singinginthereign.blogspot.com/2006/06/calvin-eucharist-as-heavenly-banquet.html
Here's a fascinating blog entry by scholar Peter Leithart. He explains how Calvin saw the Eucharist as a heavenly banquet:
__

"Paul says that just as Jesus is seated in heavenly places, so also in Him we are seated in heavenly places. We shouldn't think that someday in the postmillennial future, Christians will begin to rule. We should instead realize that we rule now. This is a strange kind of rule, a rule that no one else acknowledges, a rule that is not based on power or apparent influence, a rule that can appear to have very little effect on the world around us. But the gospel says that it's true, and we have to live in terms of what God says is the case and not in terms of what we can see is true.

"And that is part of the glory of this table. Calvin raised the question of how we can feed on Christ when He's in heaven and we're on earth, and one of his answers was that the Spirit catches us up to heaven to be with Christ. This is no earthly table; this is a heavenly table, where we sit to eat and drink in the kingdom of God. But sitting is also the posture of rule, the posture of kings, the posture of judges. Because of Jesus' ascension, this is a table for kings and queens, princes and princesses. This is a table for those who have, in Christ, ascended to heavenly places and entered the heavenly tabernacle. Because of Jesus' ascension, we have been given a kingdom, the right to eat and drink and the authority to judge the 12 tribes of Israel."

Posted by Michael Barber

3 comments:

St Pio said... Fascinating! Would it then be correct to say that Calvin's main objection to the traditional eucharistic teachings was the metaphysical emphasis it received

Mike Burgess said... to st pio:
I think we run the risk of painting with too broad a brush if we attempt to discern Calvin's "main objection to the traditional Eucharistic teachings," but I will say that several factors seem to have contributed.
First, Calvin's philosophical makeup was heavily influenced by Nominalism, Scotism, and the pagan Seneca. Volumes have been written on the deleterious effects these had on his thought, but it does seem to bolster your contention regarding the metaphysical aspects of Eucharistic teaching. This leads to a second point: practice, as opposed to teaching, was of great concern to Calvin. He, despite his faults, seems to have been rather pastoral and was concerned to direct his flock away from impious practice(s). I wonder sometimes which influenced him more: his philosophical rejection of Thomist categories such as "substance" or his "practical" desire to guide his followers? A book you might find interesting is "The Clearest Promises of God." It's all about the development of Calvin's Eucharistic theology. A decent college library or interlibrary loan should make it available free.
...& then "The Clearest Promises of God"...
(Amazon)
This work provides a detailed analysis of the development of Calvin's eucharistic doctrine. In doing so, it demonstrates the importance of examining the full range of Calvin's writings and dispels the notion that one need look only at the 1559 "Institutes" to grasp Calvin's eucharistic theology. Davis pinpoints the doctrine as the work of the Holy Spirit in the Eucharist, accommodation, instrumentality, and the Eucharist as a means of grace. There is a nuanced discussion of substantial partaking not duplicated elsewhere. Davis's work makes clear the exegetical foundations for much of Calvin's teaching on the Eucharist. Finally, Davis demonstrates that there are eucharistic gifts according to Calvin. The more general gift is that of true communion with the body and blood of Christ. However, the specific gift of the Eucharist is the assurance it brings believers of God's good will towards them. Thus, the text underscores Calvin's understanding of the Eucharist as an exhibition of the "clearest pThis work provides a detailed analysis of the development of Calvin's eucharistic doctrine. In doing so, it demonstrates the importance of examining the full range of Calvin's writings and dispels the notion that one need look only at the 1559 "Institutes" to grasp Calvin's eucharistic theology. Davis pinpoints the doctrine as the work of the Holy Spirit in the Eucharist, accommodation, instrumentality, and the Eucharist as a means of grace. There is a nuanced discussion of substantial partaking not duplicated elsewhere. Davis's work makes clear the exegetical foundations for much of Calvin's teaching on the Eucharist. Finally, Davis demonstrates that there are eucharistic gifts according to Calvin. The more general gift is that of true communion with the body and blood of Christ. However, the specific gift of the Eucharist is the assurance it brings believers of God's good will towards them. Thus, the text underscores Calvin's understanding of the Eucharist as an exhibition of the "clearest promises of God", namely, the promise of union with Christ and all which that entails.
 
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JacktheCatholic

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Ladeda.........


Ladedadee... we like ta party!

054.gif
 
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Anglian

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Dear Rick,

Most enlightening - thank you so much for that.

We believe that our Liturgy is the mirror of that enacted in Heaven, and at one point, to symbolise the presence of the Angel of this Blessed Sacrifice, the deacons use an instrument which simulates the noise of the wings of the Angel.

We make no mystery of anything. We simply do not think we can second guess what the Lord meant and call it a metaphor. We don't think there is any magic involved - there is a miracle involved, but that is not the same as magic.

As I say, we simply take Jesus at His word and neither explain it or explain it away. If you think it only symbolic, fine. All I can say is that the first time I participated at the Echaristic Feast, I knew what the Lord meant - though I cannot explain it in any words.

peace,

Anglian
 
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Zoness

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I always wondered why spiritual mysteries have to have explanations..This is a spiritual life that is walked by faith....Do I believe I am consuming an actual piece of flesh and drinking real blood when I partake , no...Do I believe that as I purify my heart to be pure before the Lord and partake of the juice/bread that Christ is somehow over, in , around and through this juice/bread and that he is present among us, yes I do..My natural mind taste juice/bread but I don't take communion as a natural act is is a spiritual one...grace and peace to you..nab

I agree with this. Regardless of if you think Christ is really present or that the act symbollic, you should still take it with reverence to our Lord and that's what really matters.
 
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Rick Otto

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I believe it BOTH - it is symbolic & He is present.
I just don't inflate His presence in the specific elements above & beyond His presence in us.
We make no mystery of anything. We simply do not think we can second guess what the Lord meant and call it a metaphor

Thinking it was more than a metaphor is 2nd guessing. He was habitualy using metaphors, but this one is obsessed with because it is at the core of what became sacrament.
 
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Rick Otto

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Rick,

Who is Davis from your post?

Also what is he saying? That Jesus is not substantially present in the Eucharist?

Thanks,

Jack
Davis is the author of the book "The Clearest Promises of God".
He is saying...
"...that there are eucharistic gifts according to Calvin. The more general gift is that of true communion with the body and blood of Christ. However, the specific gift of the Eucharist is the assurance it brings believers of God's good will towards them. Thus, the text underscores Calvin's understanding of the Eucharist as an exhibition of the "clearest promises of God", namely, the promise of union with Christ and all which that entails.

Apparently Calvin didn't spell out specifics in any one work.
 
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JamesThaddeusMartin

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I believe it BOTH - it is symbolic & He is present.
I just don't inflate His presence in the specific elements above & beyond His presence in us.

Thinking it was more than a metaphor is 2nd guessing. He was habitualy using metaphors, but this one is obsessed with because it is at the core of what became sacrament.


Even though I understand your direction I disagree because If the Eucharist is merely a metaphor and simply bread and wine, then why does the Holy Apostle Paul warn us that:

"For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep." (1 Corinthians 11:29-30).

Would ordinary bread and wine (or metaphor) make people sick or even cause them to die? Well, unless everything is interpreted to be metaphor or figurative.



JTM
 
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simonthezealot

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If this is to meant to be Christs literal flesh and blood can someone please explain how this doesn't deny the doctrine of incarnation? Where can we see proof of 1 humans flesh being in more than 1 place at one time???????
 
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