junebug72

Love, love, love!
Oct 7, 2016
50
14
51
Asheville, NC
✟7,715.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Hello. My name is JB for short. I am extremely interested in how you as an individual define; LOVE.

I define love as do no harm, want the best for you always, laughter and security. If you need food and I have some I will share it with you; the same for water.

Forgiveness, empathy, nurture, sharing are some other examples of how we can show love, IMO.

Things I don't consider love: anger, wrath, betrayal, cruelty, chaos, violence, lies...
 

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Hello. My name is JB for short. I am extremely interested in how you as an individual define; LOVE.

I define love as do no harm, want the best for you always, laughter and security. If you need food and I have some I will share it with you; the same for water.

Forgiveness, empathy, nurture, sharing are some other examples of how we can show love, IMO.

Things I don't consider love: anger, wrath, betrayal, cruelty, chaos, violence, lies...
Love is the things Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13, but.... in the Hebraic mind (which matters, the authors of Scripture were Hebrew) love is an action, not just words or a feeling. We see the love of God through the "actions" of the Son of God. John wrote in 1 John 5:3 that the love of God (in terms of us showing Him) is found in us walking in His will, keeping His commandments. So there is a clear action to this word, it speaks in action not words or emotion.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: smithed64
Upvote 0

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Love denotes an action toward something. You cannot simply Love, you must love something or someone.

It is wanting or doing the best you can for someone. This will also entail feeling disappointed, humiliated and getting angry when the object of your love fails you or you fail it. It is a complicated relational state that has aspects of the full gamut of human emotion within itself. It will bring sadness and joy, pain and laughter, anger and forgiveness.
This can be easily seen in a marriage. I love my wife, but there are few people I can get angrier at or feel more disappointed if they fail me. Similarly, my wife jokingly says she would murder me if she wouldn't have missed me so much when I was gone. This is very much a part of love, expectation and thinking the best of your beloved. Often people will fail the high standards that love expects of others.

Similarly, I love my son. I feel immense pride in his basic accomplishments, feel happy when he laughs and go out of my way to entertain him. Yet I get angry at him if he does something dangerous, I have to scold him, I have to punish him. Yet these too are acts of Love. If I did not seek his best interest through punishing him sometimes, I cannot be said to love him.

The Greeks have four words that in English are conflated as Love: Eros or Romantic Love; Storge or Empathic Love; Philia or Friendship and Agape or Unconditional Love/Charity.
If you are interested in a religious explanation of Love and its various permutations, I highly recommend The Four Loves by CS Lewis.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Galatea
Upvote 0

junebug72

Love, love, love!
Oct 7, 2016
50
14
51
Asheville, NC
✟7,715.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Love is the things Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 13, but.... in the Hebraic mind (which matters, the authors of Scripture were Hebrew) love is an action, not just words or a feeling. We see the love of God through the "actions" of the Son of God. John wrote in 1 John 5:3 that the love of God (in terms of us showing Him) is found in us walking in His will, keeping His commandments. So there is a clear action to this word, it speaks in action not words or emotion.

Would you please answer my question? Set them free? That is an action. Everything I listed above requires action.

Where is there room for the act of wrath in the act love?
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Would you please answer my question? Set them free? That is an action. Everything I listed above requires action.

Where is there room for the act of wrath in the act love?

I did answer your question. You asked how we define love and I answered that. The last part of the OP where you stated certain actions that you didn't consider love, wasn't in question form, it was a statement by you. :) To address it, though... setting something free can be love but I don't necessarily see wrath as love at least as we have the ability to understand it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: junebug72
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Supporter
May 24, 2008
23,749
20,197
Flatland
✟860,379.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
A Question for you if I may. If you love someone and they reject you, as wonderful as you are, is the moral thing to do to set them free or punish them?
Yes. Setting them free could be experienced by them as punishment.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Galatea
Upvote 0

junebug72

Love, love, love!
Oct 7, 2016
50
14
51
Asheville, NC
✟7,715.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Love denotes an action toward something. You cannot simply Love, you must love something or someone.

It is wanting or doing the best you can for someone. This will also entail feeling disappointed, humiliated and getting angry when the object of your love fails you or you fail it. It is a complicated relational state that has aspects of the full gamut of human emotion within itself. It will bring sadness and joy, pain and laughter, anger and forgiveness.
This can be easily seen in a marriage. I love my wife, but there are few people I can get angrier at or feel more disappointed if they fail me. Similarly, my wife jokingly says she would murder me if she wouldn't have missed me so much when I was gone. This is very much a part of love, expectation and thinking the best of your beloved. Often people will fail the high standards that love expects of others.

Similarly, I love my son. I feel immense pride in his basic accomplishments, feel happy when he laughs and go out of my way to entertain him. Yet I get angry at him if he does something dangerous, I have to scold him, I have to punish him. Yet these too are acts of Love. If I did not seek his best interest through punishing him sometimes, I cannot be said to love him.

The Greeks have four words that in English are conflated as Love: Eros or Romantic Love; Storge or Empathic Love; Philia or Friendship and Agape or Unconditional Love/Charity.
If you are interested in a religious explanation of Love and its various permutations, I highly recommend The Four Loves by CS Lewis.


Why would you get angry? I would feel fear not anger. I would not punish a child that did not know running in the road was dangerous. I would point out some road kill and say do you want that to happen to you? No? Then stay out of the road. It has worked very effectively for me. I would have empathy for the child not anger.

You get angry at your wife, she failed you? Okay that's not love my friend. Anger and love do not keep company with one another. If you had empathy for your wife you would not get angry at her.
 
Upvote 0

junebug72

Love, love, love!
Oct 7, 2016
50
14
51
Asheville, NC
✟7,715.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I did answer your question. You asked how we define love and I answered that. The last part of the OP where you stated certain actions that you didn't consider love, wasn't in question form, it was a statement by you. :) To address it, though... setting something free can be love but I don't necessarily see wrath as love at least as we have the ability to understand it.

I wasn't talking about the OP I was talking about the question right after it in a separate post. Thank you for your answer.

I completely agree that wrath is hard to imagine as being a loving action. I define wrath as the most not loving action you can do to another sentient being. It includes but is not limited to torture, murder, rape and pain for the object of that wrath. It is a complete lack of empathy.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I wasn't talking about the OP I was talking about the question right after it in a separate post. Thank you for your answer.

I completely agree that wrath is hard to imagine as being a loving action. I define wrath as the most not loving action you can do to another sentient being. It includes but is not limited to torture, murder, rape and pain for the object of that wrath. It is a complete lack of empathy.
Well, keep in mind that God "so loved the WHOLE WORLD" and yet will pour wrath out on it at some point. This punishes the wicked and also removes their influence from His bride. Therefore, one could argue that this is also an act of love even if our fleshly finite minds cannot grasp the weight of it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Galatea
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Quid est Veritas?

In Memoriam to CS Lewis
Feb 27, 2016
7,319
9,272
South Africa
✟316,433.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Why would you get angry? I would feel fear not anger. I would not punish a child that did not know running in the road was dangerous. I would point out some road kill and say do you want that to happen to you? No? Then stay out of the road. It has worked very effectively for me. I would have empathy for the child not anger.
Emotions don't exist in isolation. It is fear, anger, regret etc. all in one.
Sometimes you need to show anger that your child understands the importance of what you are saying. The very fear, the earth-shattering loss that even a minor discomfort of your child causes you, can easily manifest as anger when they did not listen. I trust you don't have any kids?
You don't love your child any less, your just so disappointed and broken by it.

You get angry at your wife, she failed you? Okay that's not love my friend. Anger and love do not keep company with one another. If you had empathy for your wife you would not get angry at her.
Don't presume to lecture me on love. I am happily married.
Do you honestly believe that a loving couple will never fight? That is not how relationships work.
Because I love my wife, I assume she will always act in my best interests. Sometimes people do not, sometimes we are selfish, sometimes we have unrealistic or impossible expectations. This will result in disappointment and anger; when I didn't take out the garbage even though I said I would or forgot to do something she really needed me to do or vice versa. Anger is a temporary and necessary emotion to take off pressure in a relationship. It does not sink a couple if they sometimes have a tiff, it's very natural and inevitable.
It is unrealistic to say 'be empathetic' and craft some hypothetical standard called 'love' which has no anger in it. No such relationship exists nor is possible unless it is a sterile and unfeeling one. Where strong feeling exists, all forms of emotion are stronger on account of it.
A fire gives heat and warmth, but can also burn you. You cannot have one without the other.
 
Last edited:
  • Agree
Reactions: Galatea
Upvote 0

junebug72

Love, love, love!
Oct 7, 2016
50
14
51
Asheville, NC
✟7,715.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Well, keep in mind that God "so loved the WHOLE WORLD" and yet will pour wrath out on it at some point. This punishes the wicked and also removes their influence from His bride. Therefore, one could argue that this is also an act of love even if our fleshly finite minds cannot grasp the weight of it.

That infers ambiguity on God's behalf, in bold. Do you really think wrath was a word made up by Yahweh or was it a word made by humans to describe Yahweh's behavior? Did wrath exist before creation?

Confusion would be another thing I would not describe as love. In the bible Jesus tells how to know God's love, compare it to your own father's love. My dad taught me all he could to keep me safe in this world. He gave me all his knowledge.

I can look around me and see better more loving fathers than mine and I can see less loving fathers. If I take the best of the best of earthly fathers and use them as a metric to understand God then wrath becomes patience.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That infers ambiguity on God's behalf, in bold. Do you really think wrath was a word made up by Yahweh or was it a word made by humans to describe Yahweh's behavior? Did wrath exist before creation?

Confusion would be another thing I would not describe as love. In the bible Jesus tells how to know God's love, compare it to your own father's love. My dad taught me all he could to keep me safe in this world. He gave me all his knowledge.

I can look around me and see better more loving fathers than mine and I can see less loving fathers. If I take the best of the best of earthly fathers and use them as a metric to understand God then wrath becomes patience.
In English? A created word to repeat a concept coming in from another language. In Hebrew, the underlining word is tied to what we would imagine a snort coming from a bull about to charge looks like. :) It is the word for nostril... so anger to the point of forced breathing. Now, I am not saying God is walking around looking to destroy, but the concept exists and we can't ignore it. Is it love? Again... not according to OUR understanding and I am NOT EVEN saying it is love according to HIS understanding. I am saying it is POSSIBLE that what He does in pouring out wrath is an act of love we cannot at this time comprehend. Again... I am saying it is "possible."

Remember:

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create evil; I, the Lord, do all these things.

He may have been dealing with Zoroastrianism and their concept of two gods (a good god and an evil god) and was simply revealing that He alone does all things... but He still says what is said and we have to take that into consideration.

Blessings.
Ken
 
Upvote 0

smithed64

To Die is gain, To Live is Christ
Supporter
Feb 2, 2013
808
279
Chattanooga, Tennessee
✟41,497.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
I think your confusing God's love with His justice. He has them both and they compliment each other.
He loved us so much he sent his son to die for us. So that we might be saved.
He loves us so much, he must be just in His judgment of us.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Hello. My name is JB for short. I am extremely interested in how you as an individual define; LOVE.
I found the definition that Rabbi Dan Juster came up with to suit me quite well:

Love is the compassionate identification with others that seeks their good, guided by biblical law."
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Galatea
Upvote 0

junebug72

Love, love, love!
Oct 7, 2016
50
14
51
Asheville, NC
✟7,715.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Emotions don't exist in isolation. It is fear, anger, regret etc. all in one.
Sometimes you need to show anger that your child understands the importance of what you are saying. The very fear, the earth-shattering loss that even a minor discomfort of your child causes you, can easily manifest as anger when they did not listen. I trust you don't have any kids?
You don't love your child any less, your just so disappointed and broken by it.


Don't presume to lecture me on love. I am happily married.
Do you honestly believe that a loving couple will never fight? That is not how relationships work.
Because I love my wife, I assume she will always act in my best interests. Sometimes people do not, sometimes we are selfish, sometimes we have unrealistic or impossible expectations. This will result in disappointment and anger; when I didn't take out the garbage even though I said I would or forgot to do something she really needed me to do or vice versa. Anger is a temporary and necessary emotion to take off pressure in a relationship. It does not sink a couple if they sometimes have a tiff, it's very natural and inevitable.
It is unrealistic to say 'be empathetic' and craft some hypothetical standard called 'love' which has no anger in it. No such relationship exists nor is possible unless it is a sterile and unfeeling one. Where strong feeling exists, all forms of emotion are stronger on account of it.
A fire gives heat and warmth, but can also burn you. You cannot have one without the other.

This is a discussion not a lecture. I'm not obligated to agree with you. I'm saying maybe if you used empathy to understand why your wife that loves you let you down then your perception would change from she let me down to she had a bad day, no need to get angry. I've known couples that fight just to make up, because the passion is strong, but that does not mean anger was the MORAL way to react.

IMHO, anger is a childish emotion that does no good for anybody. No not 1. When you're angry you're not rational. You can become violent. Anger is a gateway emotion to chaos.

The most successful couples I know don't get angry at each other. If you can't have empathy for the closet most loved people in your life how are you supposed to have empathy for strangers?

If I respect and cherish the fire my chances of getting burnt are very low. ;)
 
Upvote 0

junebug72

Love, love, love!
Oct 7, 2016
50
14
51
Asheville, NC
✟7,715.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I found the definition that Rabbi Dan Juster came up with to suit me quite well:

Love is the compassionate identification with others that seeks their good, guided by biblical law."

Thanks for sharing.

That's kind of insulting to anyone who seeks to do good by other means. Did Jesus not say to his disciples, if they are not against us they are with us, speaking about men casting out demons in the name of another God? Jesus said they are with us. If you can cast out demons in the name of another God and "be with us" then you can love as well and "be with us."

Let me just say that's a rabbit hole I'm not ready to go down at this forum just yet. It's very offensive considering Old Testament stories. I could get angry but that's not going to get me any brownie points one way or the other. I'm calmly and rather lovingly saying to you please don't insinuate that you have to be guided by biblical law to give love. I don't find insults a very loving action at all.

Compassion is another good word to add to my list of things that are loving. Let's go ahead and add tolerance as well. Why tolerance? Because it creates peace and peace not anger is a part of love.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
if they are not against us they are with us, speaking about men casting out demons in the name of another God? Jesus said they are with us. If you can cast out demons in the name of another God and "be with us" then you can love as well and "be with us."
Actually, I think you have that backward.

Mark 9.38 Now John answered Him, saying, “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.”
39 But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterward speak evil of Me.
40 For he who is not against us is on our side."
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Galatea
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Supporter
May 24, 2008
23,749
20,197
Flatland
✟860,379.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Compassion is another good word to add to my list of things that are loving. Let's go ahead and add tolerance as well. Why tolerance? Because it creates peace and peace not anger is a part of love.

You're right. I know you're new around here, but do you believe in tolerance at first sight? I think I tolerate you. I tolerate you with all my heart. I've fallen madly in tolerance with you. :swoon:
 
Upvote 0