Discussion Defending self and others.

[Frogster]

living in the holy Spirit , experiencing his presence , his guidance ,(he only says what they father is saying.) being baptized in the holy Spirit./walking in ,having ,learning of ,knowing and using the differing "gifts" of the Holy Spirit ..

essentially that is the base over riding topic of this entire forum .every topic in this forum should be swayed by this central theme of how everything revolves around living in ,listening to and obeying (for our good and the good of all others in the Love of God ) the Holy Spirit .. for in him we live and move and have our being -it is essentially the purpose of this entire forum section to discuss such things and how we apply our lives to life IN him. .
and within that perspective we must always be open to the leading of the Holy Spirit rather then the leading of the flesh .

I recall the testimony of a lady in Israel who had recently arrives there during a troubled time . sirens sounded and people were running every which way and the lord said to her .. "stand still" ..so she stood still and remained safe as bombs fell a short distance away .
another day the sirens sounded .. so she again stood still.. and the lord said to her .. "do not stay here ..run! " so she ran - and was safe .
we are supposed to me mindful of the lord at all times ,he is alive in us and we are to do his will and go where he pleases and if it please the lord that we live then praise God and if it please the lord that we be struck down for the sake of the Gospel , then praise God because he is able to raise us up again ..so we need not be so concerned for this life .

Job makes that almost unfathomable(to the natural flesh) statement saying " though he slay me , yet will in trust in him .
with the lord there is always the bigger picture .. "trust " does not have to see it - faith just knows its there .

Your posts presume a limited view, your subjective view, as to what the Holy Spirit may do. You are welcome to think passivity is always the way for you, but you must realize that Christians are in the military, and if it is ok to defend our homeland, it is ok to defend our home, by the Spirit. I guess the Christians that fought Hitler were in the flesh? Were they in the flesh?

 

[Frogster]

Defending self and others.

The question is that comes to mind for me is:

is it a sin to defend and protect ones self and/or ones family, or the elderly woman in a wheelchair at a bus stop being surrounded in a menacing way, and you have a concealed carry permit and you pull your gun to "STOP" any harm from coming to her, and unfortunately one of the ten surrounding the elderly woman in the wheelchair takes a leap at you. Do you have the right to shoot? Is it a sin?

Thank you kindly.

Good point, and actually the law says I can defend others in Texas with a permit, and the Bible says, we have to listen to the laws, that the government made.

 

[Frogster]

It just so happens that in the USA we have a second amendment, and it is not just giving us the right to shoot a squirrel. If i see an attack, or an abduction, I don't have to stand there watching a fellow citizen get hurt, and just feel bad about it, I can do something.

 

[brinny]

brinny said:
Defending self and others.

The question is that comes to mind for me is:

is it a sin to defend and protect ones self and/or ones family, or the elderly woman in a wheelchair at a bus stop being surrounded in a menacing way, and you have a concealed carry permit and you pull your gun to "STOP" any harm from coming to her, and unfortunately one of the ten surrounding the elderly woman in the wheelchair takes a leap at you. Do you have the right to shoot? Is it a sin?

Thank you kindly.

Don't think so as long as you don't kill him. The Old Testament said if a burglar came in your house and you hit him but he died it was no blood guilt.

In such a situation, the focus would be on the safety of the elderly woman in the wheelchair, would it not? If anyone comes lunging at the one holding the gun (who is holding the gun for the purpose of STOPPING/HALTING the elderly woman from being surrounded and attacked/killed by those seeking blood) it is on the one lunging at the one holding the gun. If they get shot and killed, it is because they were bound and determined to CONTINUE what was intended from the gitgo to the elderly woman in the wheelchair AND include a new victim, the one with the gun if they could get hold of it. What this scenario is, is wanton violence and menacing and murderous intentions.

The bottom line is the elderly woman needed to be protected and removed from the danger. The only way to do that would be to use a gun to STOP what was intended to be predatory-like and wanton violence against one of the most defenseless ones in sight, an elderly woman in a wheelchair.

THAT is a priority. Not whether someone gets shot and possibly killed while attempting to carry out something utterly depraved and evil, and done in a "multiple" kind of way, with a group closing in on and circling an elderly woman in a wheelchair menacingly.

Thank you kindly.

 

[Messy]

In such a situation, the focus would be on the safety of the elderly woman in the wheelchair, would it not? If anyone comes lunging at the one holding the gun (who is holding the gun for the purpose of STOPPING/HALTING the elderly woman from being surrounded and attacked/killed by those seeking blood) it is on the one lunging at the one holding the gun. If they get shot and killed, it is because they were bound and determined to CONTINUE what was intended from the gitgo to the elderly woman in the wheelchair AND include a new victim, the one with the gun if they could get hold of it. What this scenario is, is wanton violence and menacing and murderous intentions.

The bottom line is the elderly woman needed to be protected and removed from the danger. The only way to do that would be to use a gun to STOP what was intended to be predatory-like and wanton violence against one of the most defenseless ones in sight, an elderly woman in a wheelchair.

THAT is a priority. Not whether someone gets shot and possibly killed while attempting to carry out something utterly depraved and evil, and done in a "multiple" kind of way, with a group closing in on and circling an elderly woman in a wheelchair menacingly.

Thank you kindly.

I'm glad I don't live in the States where everyone can have a gun. That's very different. Police here don't even shoot people most of the time or when it's very bad they shoot 'em in the legs. I can't even imagine such a situation.
My ex once at the bus stop saw a guy with a gun in a bag and others were nagging him and he said: Do you want to know what's in here? So my ex prayed in tongues and he just backed off. But that's a very rare situation here.

 

[brinny]

I'm glad I don't live in the States where everyone can have a gun. That's very different. Police here don't even shoot people most of the time or when it's very bad they shoot 'em in the legs. I can't even imagine such a situation.
My ex once at the bus stop saw a guy with a gun in a bag and others were nagging him and he said: Do you want to know what's in here? So my ex prayed in tongues and he just backed off. But that's a very rare situation here.

My focus is on the vulnerably helpless elderly woman in the wheelchair. She needs HELP. What hopefully comes along is a mighty man of valor (as described in the Bible multiple times) and/or a mighty woman of valor (also described in the Bible - Deborah, for instance).

We are to defend the defenseless and/or speak out for those who cannot speak out for themselves.

Thank you kindly.

God bless you sis. (((hug)))

 

[Ajax 777]

Beautifully put, Mighty Brinn.

 

[hislegacy]

we are all citizens of heaven -

and the readers will please note that there has been no rebuttal whatsoever to my scriptural defense and proof that God sometimes resumes supernaturally and other times empowers us to overcome.

 

[hislegacy]

I'm glad I don't live in the States where everyone can have a gun. That's very different. Police here don't even shoot people most of the time or when it's very bad they shoot 'em in the legs. I can't even imagine such a situation.

I'm glad I don't live in the Netherlands where the income tax rate on individuals is 42%, and there is legalized prostitution resulting in up to 7,000 people a year being forced into the sex trade. found here.

The issue of the op is still the same - we are living in a fallen world, there is evil, even in paradise. Scripture is scripture regardless of the country or continent.

 

[Ajax 777]

I agree with SP. It's called "rightly DIVIDING the Word of truth." There is a time when sheep need a sheepdog to protect them from the wolf, as servants of the Good Shepherd. Are we not to demonstrate His strength when evil intends to strike fear into the hearts of men? If not, those we hope to reach will mistake our peace for weakness and cowardice, and WE WILL REACH NOBODY with turning the other cheek when it is done in the service of Jesus Christ, for they will presume us merely being our weak, ineffectual selves. There is a time and a place to take our enemy into our fist so that the lost will not presume us weak and unable — and our love therefore seen as lowest-common-denominator and contemptible — and a time and a place to deliberately demonstrate the love of Jesus Christ per the Lord's direction of our footsteps. People, the way is narrow because it is HIM, and HIM alone, not because it is consistently the most difficult thing WE can imagine according to our own understandings (which we are told never to lean upon). Ecclesiastes teaches us "THERE IS A TIME FOR PEACE, AND A TIME FOR WAR." And again: "THIS CALLS FOR WISDOM AND DISCERNMENT." We must walk in LOVE, not cowardice. We must recognize the difference between the two, and fight when the fight is good, like the defense of the defenseless, like the sheepdog protecting the flock.

 

[katerinah1947]

Good point, and actually the law says I can defend others in Texas with a permit, and the Bible says, we have to listen to the laws, that the government made.

Hi,
An important point you have made on listening to the laws that the government made. It may be in many places, but is most known to me in (Romans 13:1-5).
It is God that makes the civlilian laws. God tells us that is true there. And, just because it is missed so much, I will say it again, not for you Frogster, but for others here. In (Romans 13:1-5) God tells us that we are bound by His Civialian Laws, as they also come from Him.

So, in cases of war, if your government is of God and just, then you must obey the laws on guns and defense of the country. Look though. Look at the government used by God, in those days. It was the Roman Government. God was saying He made those laws in that Government.

Off the point, but do you also know God said that Science is commanded by Him? Do you know where that commandment is? I do. It is in Genesis. Do you know of the law in your hearts put there by God? Do you know how to makes sense of it all? I do it this way. Love (Do the will of) God with all I possess mentally, spritually, energy wise and Love (Do the will of) my neighbor as I Do the will of (Love) myself.

There is not just one answer for how we are to handle things, unless it is what God wants us to do. He had told the Apostles to use swords. Two was enough Jesus said. And when the incident happened, he told the crowd why have you come to me with clubs now to the angry men, when I was with you before. Why clubs now, might be what He meant. Why? Sure, if they killed Him then it would have been wrong in God's plan to have Jesus die on the cross for us. ~Sure, Jesus may have known what was to come. Sure Jesus told them of their future. And to keep from being killed prematurely, Jesus may have had two swords, so someone could defend Him with that sword. Then Jesus to calm that crown put the man's ear back on. He also told the soldiers and the mob, that if they continue to use swords they will die by them. And he warned his Apostles. The crowd was immediately calmed by the ear being healed. Who can be angry with a man like that. Who can be afraid now, of a man, no matter what your leaders have said to you, when that man healed another one in front of you, then chastises all who would use a sword, and also says why are you violent now, when I have never been violent.~

You all make points here. I have my own issues, on weapons and dealing death to those deserving death, under the laws of the land. I read (Romans 13 1-5) to help me with that. I use The Holy Spirit to help me with that. I have 45 scary years of dealing with being a killer of men, by training. I am that fast. In less than a second, the lead is out of my gun, and moving towards the bad guys. It is and has been my job for fifty years. I worry constantly about it. Yet, it is as God has made me, fierce with the guilty, those identified as guilty by the (Romans 13:1-5 laws) and taking bullets for the innocent if I can, rather than them being hurt or injured.
When I am too badly injured, God removes me from the combat line. When I have been fighting too long, hopefully like I am supposed to, then I am pulled back to recover. I cannot imagine if better people than I am, were not there in wars to protect me, how I or any of you would be allowed to be here. WWI, guns and (Romans 13:1-5) was involved. WWII also. Korea. The terrorists today.
Maybe it all makes sense this way. I was made this way by God. You are made in the way you are made by God. I do what I do, and God approves of me.(I hope) You do what you do for God and God approves of you. Yet, each of us, is treated by God as we are to Him and for Him, on this earth. For instance, bullets leave my gun in less than a second to bad guys. In less that three seconds, three bullets are being sent to a wonded bear when he/she popped up on me. I was not afraid. I am made that way. Yet, when I am to blow away a young man for a robbery that I was just in, the shotgun, my own persoanal shotgun was handed off to someone with supoosedly more experience than I had at age, 16. He never pulled the trigger. I looked at him stunned. I never knew why.
Maybe the boy/man was not supposed to die, as I was trained by The Chicago Police department to do in 1964 or so. I have actually never killed or shot a human in my life. Maybe that is because, I am not supposed to, for who I am. I don't know. I really don't know. Yes, even making sure a wounded bear, that would not survive the winter, thus dying slowly and painfully, was killed, I have never gotten over that. I hate killing rabbits for food on a farm. I was excused from that and they actually gave up doing that, as I just couldn't take it. Yes, it was my job to dispatch them. Yes I did that. After the third crop, the food production changed as their hunter, me, could not take killing rabbits.
It is maybe that God deals with us as He has made us. David could kill. I can. The Bible is my guide here. We are told to kill occasionally, when the laws of God say we are to do that. Wars, criminals and our families we are to defend, with guns if necessary.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Frogster]

I'm glad I don't live in the Netherlands where the income tax rate on individuals is 42%, and there is legalized prostitution resulting in up to 7,000 people a year being forced into the sex trade. found here.

The issue of the op is still the same - we are living in a fallen world, there is evil, even in paradise. Scripture is scripture regardless of the country or continent.

Agreed!

 

[Frogster]

I'm glad I don't live in the States where everyone can have a gun. That's very different. Police here don't even shoot people most of the time or when it's very bad they shoot 'em in the legs. I can't even imagine such a situation.
My ex once at the bus stop saw a guy with a gun in a bag and others were nagging him and he said: Do you want to know what's in here? So my ex prayed in tongues and he just backed off. But that's a very rare situation here.

anyone that ever gets attached where you live, wishes they had a gun. We have freedom here.

 

[Frogster]

Hi,
An important point you have made on listening to the laws that the government made. It may be in many places, but is most known to me in (Romans 13:1-5).
It is God that makes the civlilian laws. God tells us that is true there. And, just because it is missed so much, I will say it again, not for you Frogster, but for others here. In (Romans 13:1-5) God tells us that we are bound by His Civialian Laws, as they also come from Him.

So, in cases of war, if your government is of God and just, then you must obey the laws on guns and defense of the country. Look though. Look at the government used by God, in those days. It was the Roman Government. God was saying He made those laws in that Government.

Off the point, but do you also know God said that Science is commanded by Him? Do you know where that commandment is? I do. It is in Genesis. Do you know of the law in your hearts put there by God? Do you know how to makes sense of it all? I do it this way. Love (Do the will of) God with all I possess mentally, spritually, energy wise and Love (Do the will of) my neighbor as I Do the will of (Love) myself.

There is not just one answer for how we are to handle things, unless it is what God wants us to do. He had told the Apostles to use swords. Two was enough Jesus said. And when the incident happened, he told the crowd why have you come to me with clubs now to the angry men, when I was with you before. Why clubs now, might be what He meant. Why? Sure, if they killed Him then it would have been wrong in God's plan to have Jesus die on the cross for us. ~Sure, Jesus may have known what was to come. Sure Jesus told them of their future. And to keep from being killed prematurely, Jesus may have had two swords, so someone could defend Him with that sword. Then Jesus to calm that crown put the man's ear back on. He also told the soldiers and the mob, that if they continue to use swords they will die by them. And he warned his Apostles. The crowd was immediately calmed by the ear being healed. Who can be angry with a man like that. Who can be afraid now, of a man, no matter what your leaders have said to you, when that man healed another one in front of you, then chastises all who would use a sword, and also says why are you violent now, when I have never been violent.~

You all make points here. I have my own issues, on weapons and dealing death to those deserving death, under the laws of the land. I read (Romans 13 1-5) to help me with that. I use The Holy Spirit to help me with that. I have 45 scary years of dealing with being a killer of men, by training. I am that fast. In less than a second, the lead is out of my gun, and moving towards the bad guys. It is and has been my job for fifty years. I worry constantly about it. Yet, it is as God has made me, fierce with the guilty, those identified as guilty by the (Romans 13:1-5 laws) and taking bullets for the innocent if I can, rather than them being hurt or injured.
When I am too badly injured, God removes me from the combat line. When I have been fighting too long, hopefully like I am supposed to, then I am pulled back to recover. I cannot imagine if better people than I am, were not there in wars to protect me, how I or any of you would be allowed to be here. WWI, guns and (Romans 13:1-5) was involved. WWII also. Korea. The terrorists today.
Maybe it all makes sense this way. I was made this way by God. You are made in the way you are made by God. I do what I do, and God approves of me.(I hope) You do what you do for God and God approves of me. Yet, each of us, is treated by God as we are to Him and for Him, on this earth. For instance, bullets leave my gun in less than a second to bad guys. In less that three seconds, three bullets are being sent to a wonded bear when he/she popped up on me. I was not afraid. I am made that way. Yet, when I am to blow away a young man for a robbery that I was just in, the shotgun, my own persoanal shotgun was handed off to someone with supoosedly more experience than I had at age, 16. He never pulled the trigger. I looked at him stunned. I never knew why.
Maybe the boy/man was not supposed to die, as I was trained by The Chicago Police department to do in 1964 or so. I have actually never killed or shot a human in my life. Maybe that is because, I am not supposed to, for who I am. I don't know. I really don't know. Yes, even making sure a wounded bear, that would not survive the winter, thus dying slowly and painfully, was killed, I have never gotten over that. I hate killing rabbits for food on a farm. I was excused from that and they actually gave up doing that, as I just couldn't take it. Yes, it was my job to dispatch them. Yes I did that. After the third crop, the food production changed as their hunter, me, could not take killing rabbits.
It is maybe that God deals with us as He has made us. David could kill. I can. The Bible is my guide here. We are told to kill occasionally, when the laws of God say we are to do that. Wars, criminals and our families we are to defend, with guns if necessary.

LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

hi, I am going out for the day, I will read this later, thanks!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Are you american ?

Yes, do you feel that is an American philosophy?

Several years ago when I was attending a Word of Faith Church I was experiencing the same physical issues as the Woman with the Issue of Blood. I had been suffering for years with it...bleeding constantly. I was applying all the healing scriptures I could think of. At times there was reprieve but it never stopped. For years. Finely I just could not handle it anymore. I concluded that while I believed God wanted to heal me, my faith was just not in the place it needed to be in order for me to be healed without God using the knowledge that the human doctor had in order to take care of the problem. God gave man the knowledge and the wisdom and ability. I do not feel that God is looking down on me in shame because I did that. Likewise, I do not feel that God is looking down in shame on those who "have a plan". Their plan includes God helping them do whatever they need to do to protect themselves and does not in any way exclude faith that He is there with them wherever they are in whatever situation and He will protect them any way He chooses, whether it be by using their devise of plan or strictly His own.

Now there have been many other times, when God supernaturally came through for me in ways that stunned everyone around me, but on the healing thing, for some reason my faith was just not there. I'm thankful that God has given man knowledge and wisdom and I'm thankful that at the time I needed it I had the medical insurance through my job that paid for it.

 

[katerinah1947]

Yes, do you feel that is an American philosophy?

Several years ago when I was attending a Word of Faith Church I was experiencing the same physical issues as the Woman with the Issue of Blood. I had been suffering for years with it...bleeding constantly. I was applying all the healing scriptures I could think of. At times there was reprieve but it never stopped. For years. Finely I just could not handle it anymore. I concluded that while I believed God wanted to heal me, my faith was just not in the place it needed to be in order for me to be healed without God using the knowledge that the human doctor had in order to take care of the problem. God gave man the knowledge and the wisdom and ability. I do not feel that God is looking down on me in shame because I did that. Likewise, I do not feel that God is looking down in shame on those who "have a plan". Their plan includes God helping them do whatever they need to do to protect themselves and does not in any way exclude faith that He is there with them wherever they are in whatever situation and He will protect them any way He chooses, whether it be by using their devise of plan or strictly His own.

Now there have been many other times, when God supernaturally came through for me in ways that stunned everyone around me, but on the healing thing, for some reason my faith was just not there. I'm thankful that God has given man knowledge and wisdom and I'm thankful that at the time I needed it I had the medical insurance through my job that paid for it.

Hi,
It is not that your faith was not there, I think. It is there was another option that was available for you.
Is that the difference in supernatural and natural in your life? Is it that when God is all there is, then God is there for you, but He still picks the timing and the way.? Is that it? Is that it?
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

 

[Svt4Him]

As super spiritual as this sounds, God has delegated the authority to people, so by saying you'll do nothing but pray is again nice, hope you get your reward, but you are ignoring that aspect of God, and are in fact then not trusting that He knew what He was doing, when He said to take care of your family.

It does not just "sound "great to trust God it is an essential of faith without which it is impossible to please God . there s no greater way to take care of ones family then to trust in the one true living God .a wise man "puts his trust In God "
This is what the LORD says: "Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who draws strength from mere flesh and whose heart turns away from the LORD.-Jeremiah

not only do i think we can pray away an intruder but also cast out the demon from him inspiring him to do the evil .. as some have testified of doing .
your high ideals are so wonderful from the carnal mind of youthful strength ... what happens when the head of the house is an elderly person of small stature or a mother of extremely slight build .. where is the confidence in the arm of the flesh then?
we must never advocate unbelief and mistrust in God .we are never wrong to trust in GOD .never .

 

[Messy]

I'm glad I don't live in the Netherlands where the income tax rate on individuals is 42%, and there is legalized prostitution resulting in up to 7,000 people a year being forced into the sex trade. found here.

The issue of the op is still the same - we are living in a fallen world, there is evil, even in paradise. Scripture is scripture regardless of the country or continent.

Well then we're both glad to live where God placed us.
I'm glad to live in Sodom and Gomorrah.

for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

I didn't mean to say we're better but I'm glad I don't need a gun here. The testimony you gave that the Holy Spirit told you to take your gun, I believe you but imagine someone would say that here in church.. Whut???
It's an entirely different situation and culture. You guys live in the Wild West.

 

[Alithis]

Hi,
It is not that your faith was not there, I think. It is there was another option that was available for you.
Is that the difference in supernatural and natural in your life? Is it that when God is all there is, then God is there for you, but He still picks the timing and the way.? Is that it? Is that it?
LOVE,
...Mary., .... .

yes , i guess that was my point in asking about "being american (or australian english NZ etc )..on the weapons thing its overtly an american attitude, its seems to be a "violence" ingrained in the thought patterns so much so that it is your /their first thought ,the first option and it seems in the attitudes of some , the only option .
on the healing thing .. yes it is a common thing that where there is another option we take it .. and to be fair we are pressured into taking it ..almost by law in some cases .where as in a country where no such medical aid is available the evidence of the power of god is made manifest and the glory of God is displayed to those who have no other option far more then it is in us who are honestly "mixed" in our faith dividing it between man and god .. not whole on either side of the fence .. but that's not always because we desire to be that way , we've been raised in the west to be that way . we need God to save us and return us to the fullness of faith .

 

[Alithis]

As super spiritual as this sounds, God has delegated the authority to people, so by saying you'll do nothing but pray is again nice, hope you get your reward, but you are ignoring that aspect of God, and are in fact then not trusting that He knew what He was doing, when He said to take care of your family.

no thats just reasoning away faith , watering it down . excusing its lack .. the sentiments some folks here are so boldly claiming are first a stance of youthful strength ( and its pride) .. a very good christian man my pastor knew here in NZ went to the aid of a woman about 3 years back, who was openly being bashed by a man on the street .. all he did was to intervene and say" hey hey stop it" .. the man turned on him and suddenly stabbed him and he died leaving his wife and children fatherless . you see its all very well to sound all tough but we must have our lives at all times ready and wiling to be laid down .. he gave his life . that perpetrator fled and the woman lived .. thus he laid down his life for that woman he had never met . and god will raise him uop again at the last day .
the sentiment shared too often here is that you must save "SELF" at all cost.. no ,love lays don itself " it does not seek to save itself .
To say some perpetrator is "scum" and live life prepared to shoot him at the first opportunity displays exactly ZERO love of god in a thought pattern and attitude and is in need of repentance .

how we are to view the criminal, is as a soul lost and in need of the love of God displayed in Christ JEsus .. and if we die in the deliverance of that message whether by word or deed , then so bit it .., for we were that person ..lost and dead in the filth of sin when Christ Jesus laid down his life for us .
And the lord Jesus us able to raise us up again and will do so , hence we need fear nothing of love .