Debating the Trinity

[miknik5]

Because HE must reign until all has been accomplished

 

[The Scapegoat]

Sorry Miknik5, my reply posting was in error. I'm new here, still trying to figure things out. Must have hit post reply by mistake. I'll get the hang of it.....eventually.

It's a very deep and controversial debate, for sure. Something definitely worth discussing and examining. I'll pass for the moment.

That was someone else's post, by the way. Not mine. Therefore, my error in not including my reply AND hitting the post reply button.

 

[miknik5]

Sorry Miknik5, my reply posting was in error. I'm new here, still trying to figure things out. Must have hit post reply by mistake. I'll get the hang of it.....eventually.

It's a very deep and controversial debate, for sure. Something definitely worth discussing and examining. I'll pass for the moment.

That was someone else's post, by the way. Not mine. Therefore, my error in not including my reply AND hitting the post reply button.

You can still go back. Below and to the left is a symbol with three horizontal dashes. Click on that and you will see "edit"

Click on edit and begin to type your response and then hit post. This way you can still get in your response.

 

[The Scapegoat]

Ok...thank you. I'm not a techy either. Ugh! Thanks

 

[miknik5]

Ok...thank you. I'm not a techy either. Ugh! Thanks

Neither am I. You at least found out how to attach an emoji symbol.

 

[The Scapegoat]

lol...yes, that I did learn,....from Facebook years ago, before they provided them. And I didn't use the ones provided here (which I just now discovered are provided in the toolbar above. Duh!). Which goes to show, eventually....I do figure it out. God is merciful and longsuffering, isn't He? (colon+parentheses) HA!

 

[Geralt]

you should separate your presumptions from what is actually said in scripture. let scripture speak, and not try to fit it in your predefined ideas like the cults do. try to ask questions rather than make sweeping statements.. you do not understand the doctrine of the trinity and just affiliate it with the other heresies.​

About the only piece of scripture I could find when searching the bible that would even support the idea of the Trinity is (John 10:30) when Jesus said "I and my Father are one". But, in the same chapter a few verses later in John 10:36 Jesus says "Say yet of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?"

In other words, Jesus said "I am not claiming to be God (verse says Father, not God). I am claiming to be the Son of God."

In fact, nowhere else in the bible did Jesus ever apparently claim to be God. Throughout the entire bible he claimed to be the Son of God. Also, in (Matthew 3:16-17) we learn that the Spirit of God came down from heaven and said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

this is oneness theology, modalism, NOT Trinity. Well, if Jesus is our God Yahweh how can he be in two different places at once first of all. To claim that the baby Jesus is his son? I know, our LORD is all powerful and can do anything and to split into three would not be difficult for him. But, it just sounds fishy to me. Also, why would he claim "This is my son" and not say "He his me in human flesh" or "He is God" or say really ANYTHING that would support the Trinity?

not Trinity. Also, why would he in every single Bible verse where he speaks about the LORD would he call him Father if he was the same entity in a different Flesh?

over and over ? really? Jesus submits to the Father out of willful humility.
Why would Jesus say over and over again that the Father was greater than he was if he was God? (John 14:28)

not Trinity, but modalism. If Jesus was God why would he be separate from God in Revelation? (Revelation 1:14-18) and the Father appears throughout Chapter 4.

the bible is not just a part of the book of revelation. It's very clear from Chapters 1-4 of Revelation that Jesus and the LORD are NOT equal. None of the 24 elders in Revelation 4:10 were worshiping Jesus they were worshiping the Father and the Father alone.

not Trinity, but modalism. Also, if the LORD and Jesus were one why are they going to come down to the earth in two separate forms? And why would Jesus need to rule on the earth with us for 10,000 years? And then we worship the Father forevermore?

etc..

Why would Jesus state that the Father and the Father ALONE should be worshiped? (Matthew 4:10)

Why would Jesus state that nobody else on this earth is "Father" But, the LORD? (Matthew 23:9)

Also why would it say in the Bible over and over and over again that NOBODY is Equal to God? The only entity equal to the Father is, THE FATHER!

Yet, because of the belief in the Trinity so many Christians worship Jesus. It's even in almost every single worship song that exists today. An age, that's been proven over and over again to be corrupted? An age that Jesus warned us against (Matthew 7:15)

Also, why is Jesus always referred to in the bible as the Lord? And the Father is always referred to as the LORD? The two words are completely different. In other words, they're two completely different entities.

I'm not saying that Jesus never performed miracles. But, David also performed a miracle because he was blessed by God. Are we now going to claim that David is a god? We see miracles every single day! Are we all gods? The bible is very clear that we aren't. In fact, our desire to be gods in the first place, is part of what corrupted humanity in the first place (Genesis 3:5).

Who's to say that our LORD didn't bless Jesus in the same way? Just because Christ resurrected the dead doesn't automatically make him a god!

Paul also resurrected the dead! Are we going to claim that Paul is a god now too? Also, why would he say that he will be by the Lord's side in heaven after his resurrection if he was God?

Also, something that I'm having a really hard time accepting. If Jesus was God, why did he have to pray to HIMSELF asking for guidance and direction? Jesus was an EXTREMELY religous person who devoted and completely dedicated his life to the Father! He prayed to the Father constantly! If Jesus was the Father or any part of the Father why would he pray to HIMSELF asking what to do! If Jesus was God in the flesh he would have known exactly what to do and would have just did it and not prayed to himself for guidance at all!

So many things, just Biblically aren't adding up here. Not in the basic teachings of the LORD.

I'm not claiming to be right, in fact the Trinity is a large belief in Christianity. And, on these forums. I just think that, something just isn't right here. I'm sorry, it just isn't right. So many Bible verses contradict the Trinity that It's impossible for me to believe in. And I personally, will never believe in it. Not when the Bible gives so much evidence to the contrary. It seems to be the opinion of man and not the opinion of the LORD and certainly not of Jesus. Jesus always called himself the Son of God, and made that fact abundantly clear throughout the Bible.

My worship belongs to the LORD and the LORD alone. I pray to the LORD and the LORD alone. I hold Jesus in high respect but to me? Jesus is not God, is not equal to God, and in no way, shape, or form, is a god. This almost reminds me of Buddhism and many Buddhists today treating Buddha like he was a god. Buddha NEVER claimed to be a god nor did he want to be worshiped as one. Buddha spent his life looking FOR God.

 

[The Scapegoat]

you should separate your presumptions from what is actually said in scripture. let scripture speak, and not try to fit it in your predefined ideas like the cults do. try to ask questions rather than make sweeping statements.. you do not understand the doctrine of the trinity and just affiliate it with the other heresies.​

Sorry, that wasn't my post. I had intended to reply to that post, but did not. In error I must have hit the post reply button. Another member posted this. Sorry, my error in not leaving a reply of some kind. I don't know how it ended up as my post. It was mmbattlestar ? I'm new here and still discovering how this all works. My mistake. Sorry.

And I have no idea how to delete the post. Any suggestions?

So, perhaps you can leave your comment with the originator of the post? Perhaps? Thank you.

Nice to meet you, by the way.
My you be blessed.

 

[miknik5]

Sorry, that wasn't my post. I had intended to reply to that post, but did not. In error I must have hit the post reply button. Another member posted this. Sorry, my error in not leaving a reply of some kind. I don't know how it ended up as my post. It was mmbattlestar ? I'm new here and still discovering how this all works. My mistake. Sorry.

And I have no idea how to delete the post. Any suggestions?

So, perhaps you can leave your comment with the originator of the post? Perhaps? Thank you.

Nice to meet you, by the way.
My you be blessed.

Go back through the three dashes at the bottom of that post. Click on the three dashes click on edit and I have seen that when someone wants to delete a post they just remove the post by manually "erasing" and then post ".." Two dots to replace the post

You can't delete so you have to post something. That's what they use to "delete" the post

Edit due to "auto correct"

 

[The Scapegoat]

Go back through the three dashes at the bottom of that post. Click on the three dashes click on edit and I have seen that when someone wants to delete a post they just remove the post ms ugly and then post ".." Two dots to replace the post

You can't delete so you have to post something. That's what they use to "delete" the post

Ok...thanks again. I deleted and just posted "something"
Ugh! Getting myself into trouble already. Live and learn, I guess. *groan*

 

[sparow]

Previous post deleted. Sorry for the confusion.

I see people speaking for and against the trinity and those speaking against make more sense. Trinity means a set of three and for Christian purposes the Father Son and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity is a peculiar relationship between these three. The doctrine is a peculiar guess at defining the unknown.

I myself doubt that the Holy Spirit is a person and suspect the Holy spirit is the same in essence as the spirit of anti-Christ and we attach our selves to our spirit of choice.

 

[miknik5]

I believe men still can't make a right judgement and confuse bitter for sweet darkness for light and evil for good


Why?

I just don't know

 

[Geralt]

any person can make his own opinion about what it is. however we refer it to scripture. what does scripture reveal about its meaning, and NOT whether it seems logical or not.

not that it is wrong to use sense or logic, but when you start doing that about discussions of deity you will only end up with a humanized version of god, a derived god concocted by his own brain.

what we know about God is limited only by what God has revealed and not go beyond what He has not revealed, which is the very thing many has sort of made addendums from their own mind derivations.​

I see people speaking for and against the trinity and those speaking against make more sense. Trinity means a set of three and for Christian purposes the Father Son and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity is a peculiar relationship between these three. The doctrine is a peculiar guess at defining the unknown.

I myself doubt that the Holy Spirit is a person and suspect the Holy spirit is the same in essence as the spirit of anti-Christ and we attach our selves to our spirit of choice.

 

[sparow]

any person can make his own opinion about what it is. however we refer it to scripture. what does scripture reveal about its meaning, and NOT whether it seems logical or not.

not that it is wrong to use sense or logic, but when you start doing that about discussions of deity you will only end up with a humanized version of god, a derived god concocted by his own brain.

what we know about God is limited only by what God has revealed and not go beyond what He has not revealed, which is the very thing many has sort of made addendums from their own mind derivations.​

I don't know if you are agreeing with me or not.

 

[Revealing Times]

In other words, Jesus said "I am not claiming to be God. I am claiming to be the Son of God."

No one that I know doesn't understand that Jesus is saying he is the Son and not the Father. They are all 3 different personalities with the very same essence. They all 3 are made-up of the exact same essence, Love, Joy, Peace, Hope, Long-suffering, Patience, Honesty etc. etc. They all 3 have different offices. The Father has the abundance of the Glory. The Son is the Redeemer. and the Holy Spirit is our hep mate/comforter.

A little metaphor I like to use is this.....Say you have a 3 trillion gallon reservoir and every ounce of the water was exactly the same or had the exact same chemical make-up throughout all 3 trillion gallons. You pour 100 (Jesus) gallons of water over your head, you will be soaked, but OK. Now you pour another 100 (Holy Spirit) gallons of water over your head, you will again be soaked, with the exact same waters, but you will be OK. Now for the finish, you take all 3 Trillion (God the Father) gallons of water (Minus the 200 lol) and pour it over your head, no doubt it is exactly the same water, but the "Glory" of the Essence lies with the Father, and you would no doubt surly drown. We can not look upon the Father, we looked upon Jesus, and the Holy Spirit lives in us, but we can not look upon God the Father and He could not live in us in His full Glory, we would perish.

So Jesus and the Father are one in ESSENCE/What they are made up of, but God the Father has the abundance of the Glory.

 

[miknik5]

any person can make his own opinion about what it is. however we refer it to scripture. what does scripture reveal about its meaning, and NOT whether it seems logical or not.

not that it is wrong to use sense or logic, but when you start doing that about discussions of deity you will only end up with a humanized version of god, a derived god concocted by his own brain.

what we know about God is limited only by what God has revealed and not go beyond what He has not revealed, which is the very thing many has sort of made addendums from their own mind derivations.​

Anyone who loves ME, MY FATHER will love and WE will come and make our home with him


What does this mean?

 

[Jack Terrence]

About the only piece of scripture I could find when searching the bible that would even support the idea of the Trinity is (John 10:30) when Jesus said "I and my Father are one". But, in the same chapter a few verses later in John 10:36 Jesus says "Say yet of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?"

In other words, Jesus said "I am not claiming to be God. I am claiming to be the Son of God."

Ontologically the Son of God is the same as God.

Son of Man = Man
Son of God = God

 

[One Son]

Ontologically the Son of God is the same as God.

Son of Man = Man
Son of God = God

Num.23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
1Sam15:29.+ Ho.11:9.

1Tim.2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

the man Christ Jesus;


Deut.4:2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.


Prov.30:6. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.


Rev.22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Believe God.

 

[Der Alte]

I see people speaking for and against the trinity and those speaking against make more sense. Trinity means a set of three and for Christian purposes the Father Son and Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity is a peculiar relationship between these three. The doctrine is a peculiar guess at defining the unknown.

The word "trinity" is from "tri" and "unity." Not a set of three.

I myself doubt that the Holy Spirit is a person and suspect the Holy spirit is the same in essence as the spirit of anti-Christ and we attach our selves to our spirit of choice.

The Holy Spirit is the third person in the Trinity. He is fully God. He is eternal, omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, has a distinct will, a distinct mind, a distinct self, and can speak. He is alive. He is a person. He is not particularly visible in the Bible because His ministry is to bear witness of Jesus (John 15:26).
.....Some false teaching religions like the Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., claim e.g. that the Holy Spirit is nothing but an impersonal force (Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 406-407). This is totally false. If the Holy Spirit was merely an impersonal force or power, He could not speak (Acts 13:2); He could not be grieved (Eph. 4:30); and He would not have a will (1 Cor. 12:11), a self, (Jn 16:13), or a mind, (Rom 8:27).
.....There are, at least, seventy two (72) personal characteristics or attributes, listed in scripture for the Holy Spirit and He is a person the same as the Father and the Son are, within the Trinity.

Names of the Spirit
1. God -Acts 5:3-4, Acts 28:25-27, Heb 3:7-11, Heb 10:15-17
2. Lord - 2 Cor. 3:18
3. Spirit - 1 Cor. 2:10
4. Spirit of God - 1 Cor. 3:16
5. Spirit of Truth - John 15:26
6. Eternal Spirit - Heb. 9:14
Attributes of (9)
7. Eternal -Heb. 9:14
8. Omnipotent - Luke 1:35
9. Omnipresent - Psalm 139:710
10. Distinct Will from the father and the son– 1 Cor. 12:11
11. Loves - Rom. 15:30
12. Speaks - Acts 8:29; Acts 13:2
13. Distinct Mind from the father and the son – Rom 8:27
14. Distinct Self from the father and the son – John 16:13
15. Alive – John 14:17
Symbols of (3)
16. Dove - Mat 3:15
17. Wind - John 3:5
18. Fire - Acts 2:3
Sins Against (6)
19. Blasphemy - Mat 12:31
20. Resist (Unbelief) - Acts 7:51
21. Insult - Heb 10:29
22. Lied to - Acts 5:3
23. Grieved - Eph 4:30
24. Quench - 1 Thes 5:19
Power in Christ's Life (6)
25. Conceived of - Mat 1:18-20
26. Baptism - Mat 3:15
27. Led by - Luke 4:1
28. Filled with Power - Luke 4:14,18
29. Witness of Jesus - John 15:26
30. Raised Jesus - Rom 8:11
The Works of the Holy Spirit (42)
1 Access to God - Eph 2:18
2 Anoints for Service - Luke 4:18
3 Assures - Rom. 8:15-16; Gal 4:6
4 Authors Scripture - 2 Pet 1:20-21
5 Baptizes - John 1:32-34; 1 Cor 12:13-14
6 Believers Born of - John 3:3-6
7 Calls and Commissions - Acts 13:24; Acts 20:28
8 Cleanses - 2 Thes 3:13; 1 Pet. 1:2
9 Comforts - Act 9:31
10 Communion with believers – 2 Cor 13:14
11 Convicts of sin - John 16:9,14
12 Counsels - John 14:16
13 Creates - Gen 1:2; Job 33:4
14 Empowers - 1 Thes 1:5
15 Empowers Believers - Luke 24:49
16 Fellowship with believers – Phil 2:1
17 Fills - Acts 2:4; Acts 4:29-31; Acts 5:18-20; Acts 9:17 18 Forbids action - Acts 16:6
19 Gives gifts - 1 Cor. 12:8-11
20 Glorifies Christ - John 16:14
21 Guides in truth - John 16:13
22 Helps our weakness - Rom 8:26
23 Indwells believers - Rom 8:9-14; Gal 4:6
24 Inspires prayer - Eph 6:18; Jude 20
25 Intercedes -Rom 8:26
26 Interprets Scripture - 1 Cor 2:1,14; Eph 1:17
27 Leads - Rom 8:14
28 Liberates - Rom 8:2
29 Molds Character - Gal 5:22-23
30 Produces fruit - Gal 5:22-23
31 Raises from the dead - Rom 8:11
32 Regenerates - Titus 3:5
33 Reveals – Luk 2:26
34 Sanctifies - Rom. 15:16
35 Seals - Eph 1:13-14; Eph 4:30
36 Sends - Acts 13:4
37 Sent - Gal 4:6; 1 Pet 1:12
38 Strengthens - Eph 3:16; Acts 1:8; 2:4; 1 Cor 2:4 39 Testifies of Jesus - John 15:26
40 Victory over flesh - Rom. 8:2-4; Gal 4:6
41 Warns – Acts 20:23
42 Worship helper - Phi 3:3
[91] total verses​

Sources Consulted:
CARM.org
DTL.org/Trinity

 

[Jack Terrence]

Num.23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
1Sam15:29.+ Ho.11:9.

1Tim.2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

the man Christ Jesus;


Deut.4:2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.


Prov.30:6. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.


Rev.22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


Believe God.

You evaded my point about ontology.

Son of God = God
Son of Man = Man

Explain how a son of a being is not ontologically the same as that being.