Debating the Trinity

[Butch5]

There is no logical contradiction. Please supply a proof of this statement.

The proof is that a being consisting of three other persons does not exist anywhere in the known universe.

Thus it is not Modalistic, as I said

What you claim is impossible thus the only way what you said could be possible is via modalism.

What contradiction?There is none. Please supply corroboration. Just because you think it is, does not make it so.
Debatable, as many verses commonly quoted by trinitarians attest.

It doesn't exist. By definition a being is singular. The word being is singular thus it cannot be beings which is plural. The verses that Trinitarians quote need not be understood the way you suggest as I have already shown by showing that the earliest Christians who coned the term did not understand it that way.

This is historical error on your part or your opinion respectively.

No, it's not as I've already shown with the creeds. The one God in three persons idea doesn't appear until the Athanasian creed some 400 years after Christ and the Apostles.

Because I explained why Ransom atonement requires a trinity, which you never addressed.
Your one sentence statement does not show that the trinity is not required, it frankly shows nothing, not even what you understand as 'ransom atonement'.

The Ransom theory suggests that the Father gave His Son as a ransom for mankind. There is nothing here that requires a Trinity. I you believe there is please point it out or point to where you've posted such.

No, I gave examples. You, I and every person you have ever met fits this criteria.

Seriously you can't believe this? You believe that you consist of three human beings?

Clearly you don't understand the meaning of 'axiomatic' which means self-evident fact. You are speaking now as if it is a deduction. Regardless, you have still never shown it to be illogical by any method of logic nor is your reasoning sound as all humans consist of multiple interdependant selves according to modern medicine and science.

I'm quite aware of what the word means. It is self evident that a human being doesn't consist of three other human beings. I can't even believe you would suggest such a thing. I can't even believe we're having such a conversation. I have seen bazaar explanations to support unsupportable doctrines in the past but this is really getting bazaar.

It is solely your interpretation, since no historian, church leader or the contemporary documents of that era, supports your contention.

Are you familiar with the Scriptures and church history?

Apostle Paul
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.1 (1 Cor. 8:5-6 KJV)

Jesus
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Jn. 17:1-3 KJV)

Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

 

[Butch5]

What did you think the son was giving us that is His?

Please define what you mean by spirit.

 

[miknik5]

Please define what you mean by spirit.

Why? Don't you know?
I mean the SPIRIT of TRUTH whom The Son would send from The Father and Whom The Father would send in The Sons NAME

ONE SPiRIT

 

[Butch5]

Why? Don't you know?
I mean the SPIRIT of TRUTH whom The Son would send from The Father and Whom The Father would send in The Sons NAME

ONE SPiRIT

No, I can't read your mind. You've used Christ's Spirit, the Spirit from the Father, the Father's Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

 

[miknik5]

A body is a visible vessel
And without a spirit animating and giving life to the visible vessel of a body, a body would just be a mass of lifeless, immovable flesh

A spirit is invisible
Without a visible vessel (a body) a spirit can not be made manifest
It is only in a visible vessel that what is invisible (the spirit) can be made visible

And Philip said " show us the Father and it will suffice"


So whose Spirit gave Life to the vessel of Christ's body?

No, I can't read your mind. You've used Christ's Spirit, the Spirit from the Father, the Father's Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

ONE SPIRIT

And it's only through Christ that we have access to The Father by


ONE SPIRIT

 

[miknik5]

No, I can't read your mind. You've used Christ's Spirit, the Spirit from the Father, the Father's Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

A question for you

How was Christ's Spirit in all the prophets.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So whose Spirit gave Life to the vessel of Christ's body?

When Yhwh reveals the answer,
EVERYONE except little tiny trusting children is TOTALLY SURPRISED.
The children are just in extravagantly superabounding overflowing JOY and AWE
as they watch ABBA completely trusting HIS ABSOLUTE FAITHFULNESS AND POWER AND CARING and relying on HIM without even a thought not to- complete utter trust.

 

[miknik5]

When Yhwh reveals the answer,
EVERYONE except little tiny trusting children is TOTALLY SURPRISED.
The children are just in extravagantly superabounding overflowing JOY and AWE
as they watch ABBA completely trusting HIS ABSOLUTE FAITHFULNESS AND POWER AND CARING and relying on HIM without even a thought not to- complete utter trust.

Because they're children
It's us "wise" adults who think we are so wise and see better than little children

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Because they're children
It's us "wise" adults who think we are so wise and see better than little children

I am a little child, born again by the Will of Yhwh Abba, not the will of any man.
It was required of me to enter the Kingdom of Yhwh. (and to continue abiding in Him)
It grieves us little children to see the striving adults.

 

[miknik5]

I am a little child, born again by the Will of Yhwh Abba, not the will of any man.
It was required of me to enter the Kingdom of Yhwh. (and to continue abiding in Him)
It grieves us little children to see the striving adults.

I don't know what he is doing actually. That is what I am trying to figure out. Id like to understand what the issue is with regards to The Father The Son and The Spirit and what exactly seems to be the problem


I mean. If there is a lamb before the throne looking as if it has been son though lives then there has to be s lamb before the throne until all has been accomplished.

 

[miknik5]

Christs sacrifice must remain as a perpetual sacrifice ( for those who come to the Cross today and tomorrow) until the last numbers in Christ have been gathered up to God in The Son

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I don't know what he is doing actually. That is what I am trying to figure out. Id like to understand what the issue is with regards to The Father The Son and The Spirit and what exactly seems to be the problem
I mean. If there is a lamb before the throne looking as if it has been son though lives then there has to be s lamb before the throne until all has been accomplished.

I can answer this later, in part, I think - I am sorry I had to look again to see what section this thread is in just to know how much I might post.
As all of your life, and most people,
everywhere, has been taught lies upon lies upon lies, steeped in lies and protected by lies for centuries,
the answer is pure, holy(set apart), simple, perfect, and from above.(from Yhwh).

Christs sacrifice must remain as a perpetual sacrifice ( for those who come to the Cross today and tomorrow) until the last numbers in Christ have been gathered up to God in The Son

No.
This is part of the confusion.
Christ the Lamb of Yhwh was sacrificed once for all, one time, never to die again. His one time sacrifice , overwhelmingly extravagantly more than anyone or everyone all together could ever dream of,
far far far infinitely far beyond anyone's ken (mental ability to comprehend),
is more than enough not just for all the world (though most refuse ) and
to save everyone He saves from their sin,
but to make us perfect before the THRONE IN HEAVEN, clothed with HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS (now, today)
with RESURRECTION LIFE .. known only by little children ...
and perhaps a few who endured some years to mature in Christ, in Yhwh's Plan and Purpose
....
..

 

[miknik5]

I can answer this later, in part, I think - I am sorry I had to look again to see what section this thread is in just to know how much I might post.
As all of your life, and most people,
everywhere, has been taught lies upon lies upon lies, steeped in lies and protected by lies for centuries,
the answer is pure, holy(set apart), simple, perfect, and from above.(from Yhwh).

No.
This is part of the confusion.
Christ the Lamb of Yhwh was sacrificed once for all, one time, never to die again. His one time sacrifice , overwhelmingly extravagantly more than anyone or everyone all together could ever dream of,
far far far infinitely far beyond anyone's ken (mental ability to comprehend),
is more than enough not just for all the world (though most refuse ) and
to save everyone He saves from their sin,
but to make us perfect before the THRONE IN HEAVEN, clothed with HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS (now, today)
with RESURRECTION LIFE .. known only by little children ...
and perhaps a few who endured some years to mature in Christ, in Yhwh's Plan and Purpose
....
..

You misunderstood. His sacrifice is once and for all but not all have come to the cross. This is what I meant. That there will be disciples today and tomorrow who will come to the revelation of Christ and the message of the Cross

Everyone who belongs to God must come by way of The Cross
All His disciples. Today and tomorrow there are new believers coming to faith in Christ and the message of The Cross

And the Cross of Christ must remain until all has been accomplished. When the full numbers in Christ are complete and the year of Gods favor is complete

Not perpetual. Not that he haso to offer himself up again and again but that there will be those who will come to the revelation of the gift of God; not ongoing for those who have already come to the Cross but his sacrifice remains perpetual until everyone who comes to the Truth is brought in

 

[miknik5]

I can answer this later, in part, I think - I am sorry I had to look again to see what section this thread is in just to know how much I might post.
As all of your life, and most people,
everywhere, has been taught lies upon lies upon lies, steeped in lies and protected by lies for centuries,
the answer is pure, holy(set apart), simple, perfect, and from above.(from Yhwh).

No.
This is part of the confusion.
Christ the Lamb of Yhwh was sacrificed once for all, one time, never to die again. His one time sacrifice , overwhelmingly extravagantly more than anyone or everyone all together could ever dream of,
far far far infinitely far beyond anyone's ken (mental ability to comprehend),
is more than enough not just for all the world (though most refuse ) and
to save everyone He saves from their sin,
but to make us perfect before the THRONE IN HEAVEN, clothed with HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS (now, today)
with RESURRECTION LIFE .. known only by little children ...
and perhaps a few who endured some years to mature in Christ, in Yhwh's Plan and Purpose
....
..

The lamb before the throne signifies that no man can come before the throne of God except through the true veil which is His Body

It signifies that no man can bypass the Son and that there is no other way by which a man can enter in

But as to a lamb actually and literally before the throne?

Well
I do not wish to answer that

This man should understand that Christ must reign until all has been accomplished. And we who have entered in are more in service to those who haven't

And our work was to point to Christ and the message of the cross

But here we are discussing meat when many don't even acknowledge first and haven't even drunk foremost THE MILK

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

The proof is that a being consisting of three other persons does not exist anywhere in the known universe.

Untrue. I have met Him and I hope you have as well, although you have become a bit confused on Him.

What you claim is impossible thus the only way what you said could be possible is via modalism.

Maybe if I was not a trinitarian. But you see, I am...

It doesn't exist. By definition a being is singular. The word being is singular thus it cannot be beings which is plural. The verses that Trinitarians quote need not be understood the way you suggest as I have already shown by showing that the earliest Christians who coned the term did not understand it that way.

Debatable and merely your opinion.

No, it's not as I've already shown with the creeds. The one God in three persons idea doesn't appear until the Athanasian creed some 400 years after Christ and the Apostles.

False. Read up on history. The Nicaean creed was actually established to defend Trinitarianism against Arianism.

The Ransom theory suggests that the Father gave His Son as a ransom for mankind. There is nothing here that requires a Trinity. I you believe there is please point it out or point to where you've posted such.

In the very post I have repeatedly asked you to read. Here again:

Debatable to say Ransom Atonement was the 'original'. People say that of Christus Victor and Moral Influence theories as well. Ransom is associated with Origen though and quite common in the Church Fathers.

Ransom still requires a trinity, for to buy humanity from Satan or Death's bondage to maintain Justice - the essence of the theory - only works because God or Life itself, cannot die or be held in Hades. The Unity of the Father and Son allows the Son as a perfect Man to transcend the limitation of men and Man can then also defeat death via our unity of God via Christ.
If Jesus had been a separate entity handed over in Ransom for our debts incurred, not only would this impinge Justice - as God would be condemning the innocent for others' crimes - it would also require an explanation of how Jesus could have overcome death. For if the Father raised him, then the Father cheated and acted unjustly in the arrangement, breaking contract as it were. Likewise if Jesus raised himself somehow, he is not a willing ransom and therefore it is also unjust.
Only if Jesus is innately incapable of dying - if He is Life itself, God Himself - can justice be maintained in Ransom theory. A created being cannot do this without leaving an Unjust Father.

Seriously you can't believe this? You believe that you consist of three human beings?

No, an unknown number. It is what modern Neuroscience points towards:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mind-reviews-the-self-illusion/

https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=...oTUhu1mTQ&sig2=bXiC2yb4kgfDBTupRmyZNA&cad=rja

I'm quite aware of what the word means. It is self evident that a human being doesn't consist of three other human beings. I can't even believe you would suggest such a thing. I can't even believe we're having such a conversation. I have seen bazaar explanations to support unsupportable doctrines in the past but this is really getting bazaar.

I am not really supporting unsupportable doctrines, but the time tested doctrines of most of Christianity.
I find the idea of paying Christ as Ransom to the devil bizarre and downright weird. Almost Manichaean or Dualistic, if no trinity is involved.

Are you familiar with the Scriptures and church history?

Apostle Paul
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.1 (1 Cor. 8:5-6 KJV)

Jesus
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Jn. 17:1-3 KJV)

Nicene Creed
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

Again, your interpretation. I interpret all of those as speaking of the Trinity, in fact I would quote them as verses that support it.

 

[KarlX]

Yet, because of the belief in the Trinity so many Christians worship Jesus.

There is nothing wrong with worshiping or praying to Jesus .

Matt
2:11 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, rthey offered him gifts, sgold and tfrankincense and umyrrh.


There are other such verse as well to him having been prayed too.


Though seriously I do get your point it is very well noted , I mean God praying to himself is not only sort of weird but sounds contradictory.

Personally , I do believe in a sort of trinity though maybe not exactly in the established perceived form of it but I do believe that .

To me Jesus is just as much God as the Father being he was worshiped and even prayed to , I think that enough biblical support .

However no matter how correct I personally see this the acceptance of the trinity I do not think was noted until later after the time of the apostles.

I suspect maybe not until thereabouts of 2 to 400 AD and yes probably decided on by men .

I believe the belief is correct and supported but even so I do not believe that salvation is
ABSOLUTELY dependent upon this belief .

 

[KarlX]

I agree for the most part. Im not big on the Trinity. And there is even a part of Revelation that states that God actually has seven spirits.


But I find the debate over Trinity to be unnecessary and useless. Its an issue that causes arguments and splits over something that really doesn't even matter. I personally dont care whether God is 3 or 1 or 3 in 1 or 7 like Revelation says. All I care is that he is my creator and his son is my savior. So I generally avoid debating this topic. Both sides have a number of scriptures to support their view but neither side seems to have an abundance of evidence over the opposing position.

Very well said .

 

[Wolf_Says]

There is no debate in the trinity, as Jesus himself said in Matthew 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"

Jesus himself recognized the trinity, and is Jesus said it, it is not up for debate.

 

[sparow]

About the only piece of scripture I could find when searching the bible that would even support the idea of the Trinity is (John 10:30) when Jesus said "I and my Father are one". But, in the same chapter a few verses later in John 10:36 Jesus says "Say yet of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God?"

In other words, Jesus said "I am not claiming to be God. I am claiming to be the Son of God."

In fact, nowhere else in the bible did Jesus ever apparently claim to be God. Throughout the entire bible he claimed to be the Son of God. Also, in (Matthew 3:16-17) we learn that the Spirit of God came down from heaven and said "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

Well, if Jesus is our God Yahweh how can he be in two different places at once first of all. To claim that the baby Jesus is his son? I know, our LORD is all powerful and can do anything and to split into three would not be difficult for him. But, it just sounds fishy to me. Also, why would he claim "This is my son" and not say "He his me in human flesh" or "He is God" or say really ANYTHING that would support the Trinity?

Also, why would he in every single Bible verse where he speaks about the LORD would he call him Father if he was the same entity in a different Flesh? Why would Jesus say over and over again that the Father was greater than he was if he was God? (John 14:28)

If Jesus was God why would he be separate from God in Revelation? (Revelation 1:14-18) and the Father appears throughout Chapter 4.

It's very clear from Chapters 1-4 of Revelation that Jesus and the LORD are NOT equal. None of the 24 elders in Revelation 4:10 were worshiping Jesus they were worshiping the Father and the Father alone.

Also, if the LORD and Jesus were one why are they going to come down to the earth in two separate forms? And why would Jesus need to rule on the earth with us for 10,000 years? And then we worship the Father forevermore?

Why would Jesus state that the Father and the Father ALONE should be worshiped? (Matthew 4:10)

Why would Jesus state that nobody else on this earth is "Father" But, the LORD? (Matthew 23:9)

Also why would it say in the Bible over and over and over again that NOBODY is Equal to God? The only entity equal to the Father is, THE FATHER!

Yet, because of the belief in the Trinity so many Christians worship Jesus. It's even in almost every single worship song that exists today. An age, that's been proven over and over again to be corrupted? An age that Jesus warned us against (Matthew 7:15)

Also, why is Jesus always referred to in the bible as the Lord? And the Father is always referred to as the LORD? The two words are completely different. In other words, they're two completely different entities.

I'm not saying that Jesus never performed miracles. But, David also performed a miracle because he was blessed by God. Are we now going to claim that David is a god? We see miracles every single day! Are we all gods? The bible is very clear that we aren't. In fact, our desire to be gods in the first place, is part of what corrupted humanity in the first place (Genesis 3:5).

Who's to say that our LORD didn't bless Jesus in the same way? Just because Christ resurrected the dead doesn't automatically make him a god!

Paul also resurrected the dead! Are we going to claim that Paul is a god now too? Also, why would he say that he will be by the Lord's side in heaven after his resurrection if he was God?

Also, something that I'm having a really hard time accepting. If Jesus was God, why did he have to pray to HIMSELF asking for guidance and direction? Jesus was an EXTREMELY religous person who devoted and completely dedicated his life to the Father! He prayed to the Father constantly! If Jesus was the Father or any part of the Father why would he pray to HIMSELF asking what to do! If Jesus was God in the flesh he would have known exactly what to do and would have just did it and not prayed to himself for guidance at all!

So many things, just Biblically aren't adding up here. Not in the basic teachings of the LORD.

I'm not claiming to be right, in fact the Trinity is a large belief in Christianity. And, on these forums. I just think that, something just isn't right here. I'm sorry, it just isn't right. So many Bible verses contradict the Trinity that It's impossible for me to believe in. And I personally, will never believe in it. Not when the Bible gives so much evidence to the contrary. It seems to be the opinion of man and not the opinion of the LORD and certainly not of Jesus. Jesus always called himself the Son of God, and made that fact abundantly clear throughout the Bible.

My worship belongs to the LORD and the LORD alone. I pray to the LORD and the LORD alone. I hold Jesus in high respect but to me? Jesus is not God, is not equal to God, and in no way, shape, or form, is a god. This almost reminds me of Buddhism and many Buddhists today treating Buddha like he was a god. Buddha NEVER claimed to be a god nor did he want to be worshiped as one. Buddha spent his life looking FOR God.

When something is not found in new scripture it usually means no change is made.

A good discussion on the trinity is found here: http://christianthinktank.com/trin01.html

 

[The Scapegoat]

Previous post deleted. Sorry for the confusion.