Death with dignity passes in California ( faith perspective only)

[Cos-play]

??
I certainly haven't seen any "pretty persuasive argument" from your side of the subject, and I have no idea what you mean by saying that I want to take away someone's right to argue.

Well, just because they're not persuasive to you doesn't mean they aren't to others. Lot's of people evidently find them persuasive. Right to Die laws are really popular. And what I mean by a right to argue a point (and that was a little vague) is that while I may disagree with someones position on this I at least understand the reasons the take the positions, respect the argument they make and am reluctant to remove their right to have this option.

If you do have a logical and morally intact argument to present, then by all means do so.

I have been. You appear to be too closed minded to appropriate it. Which is not a character flaw, it's just the way some people are on some subjects.

 

[MoonlessNight]

There's a difference between being "closed minded" and not being convinced by your personal decrees.

But it's nice of you to be so generous as to say that we aren't the worse off for being "closed minded." It's good to know that it isn't our fault for not being as able to instantly agree with your opinions as you are.

 

[Michie]

I wanted faith based perspectives on this issue Charlie. I'm well aware of the secular arguments for euthanasia. I think this is all going to boil down to an individual's choice in that matter. My suggestion to those that do not want to exercise that option is to get a living will.

 

[Cos-play]

I agree that we have established that the law says what the law says. As this is a tautology I don't know why it took us this long for you to tell us that that was your position, but I don't think that anyone here will disagree with your claim that the law says what the law says.

But who cares? No one has been disputing what the law says. We have speculated on why the law was created, or what it might mean in the future, or how it relates to Catholic spirituality, but no one has been arguing that the law does not say what it says.

Perhaps after this we can have more thrilling discussions where we determine that the fact we are on the Earth means that we are on the Earth, or if the sun is shining then the sun is in fact shining. Personally I don't find such conversations interesting though, so if you want to argue similar statements in the future please inform me at the beginning of the situation rather than getting me involved under other pretenses.

There's no need to get snippy.

Brewma here is make some rather strident and one sided philosophical arguments but at least she's coming at me from a philosophical standpoint.

You have repeatedly asked me to defend philosophical question using this law as a basis.

I'm not going to do that, it's doing things in the wrong direction. If you really want to talk about end of life issues in a philosophical way then lets start a new thread an have at it. But you can't start with "why is six months a better starting point the for two years?" because that's a question for the people who wrote the law and is likely a practical compromise anyway.

 

[Cos-play]

There's a difference between being "closed minded" and not being convinced by your personal decrees.

There is also a difference, kind sir, between recognizing a moral argument you disagree with and just assuming that the argument is an immoral screed because you don't like it.

But it's nice of you to be so generous as to say that we aren't the worse off for being "closed minded." It's good to know that it isn't our fault for not being as able to instantly agree with your opinions as you are.

You know, I've been really kind over the years attempt to put forth morally supportable arguments that are defensible in Christian thought even if not precisely Catholic. And I get people basically dismissing me as illogical, immoral and just demented all the time.

It used to bother to distraction.

It doesn't anymore. Using as much objectivity as I can muster (and I can muster a bunch) the arguments being made on the other side are if not persuasive at least seriously thought provoking.

Anyone who can't even admit that much is just not paying attention.

 

[MoonlessNight]

There is a saying which goes "internet debate is a spectator sport." The purpose of the statement is to point out that hardly anyone is ever swayed in a debate online, so going into a discussion expecting to change anyone's view is an exercise in futility.

But it is a "spectator sport" in that they can make quite an impression on the onlookers to the debate. It is quite easy for someone to say that he is reasonable or that his opponents are dismissing his views without discussion. He may even convince himself of that. But after a prolonged discussion it becomes hard to convince onlookers of these things unless they have actually been demonstrated.

 

[Rhamiel]

I wanted faith based perspectives on this issue

well lets look at it from a theological point of view

what are the three theological virtues?
Hope, Faith, and Charity

those who choose to kill themselves are rejecting hope, they are saying that there is NOTHING that can be done for them, or their is nothing they can do that is worth living for

those who choose to kill themselves reject faith, they do not accept the crosses that the Lord has given them, they do not accept the situation that the Lord has placed them in, so instead they choose to be masters of life and death instead of accepting the lordship of Christ

those who choose to kill themselves through physician assisted suicide reject charity, they turn the doctor and whoever else assists them into murderers
showing no concern for the souls of others, dragging them into their sin, making them co-conspirators in murder



people will say stuff like "you never been in this situation, you can not speak on this"
well I have never been in a war either, but if someone told me a report of a soldier who raped 13 year old girls, I would say "well that is a horrible thing, rape is wrong"
the fact that I have never been off to war does not mean that I can not say rape is wrong
murder is also wrong
you can not kill yourself
you can not murder other people

 

[Rhamiel]

there is a difference between killing yourself and hospice care

it can be compared to the difference between an abortion and operating on a pregnant woman even though the operation is risky for the unborn child

intention matters
the goal is to save the life of the mother, or alleviate the pain of a person near the end of their life
you can do things that are risky
all of life is a risk
but the goal is seeking something good

if the goal is to kill
then it is an evil action and a sin against God and neighbor

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

That's similar to my experience with my mother. She had suffered stokes and we had her on a feeding tube and a respirator. Gave her a chance to recover and then when it came time for Medicare to give up and send her off to a facility where she would just rot in a bed we chose to take her off the respirator and let nature take its course. She died 4 days later and I will always pray that we made the right choice and with hospice I pray she didn't suffer but was comfortable.

Sorry for your loss. Same here regarding the decision. My Father 87 is now in assisted living and struggling. He is losing his ability to transfer from wheelchair to bed or lounge chair. He is struggling with congestive heart, has loss the ability to walk and now this. His mind is sharp, he is scared and Incan sense he wants to go.

My confession is that I wish he would. I hate to see him suffer and lose all dignity withndiapers and such.

I am NOT for euthanasia, but Can understand hospice in some cases. Obviously not mynfathets being that he is cognitively sharp.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Historically, the Church issued that suicide is an unforgivable sin. This was especially true during the Inquisitions when people sought to kill themselves rather then be tortured until they conceded to the Church's orthodoxy.
But, you can't really just single out the RCC, because most of Christianity has issued the same notion- that if you kill yourself then you are going to Hell.
I really think Judas is a central inspiration for that honestly, among other things.

It's something I myself do not believe is the case, at least not in a lot of circumstances. Suicide is the result of a despair so deep that the only way one reconciles it is to end their life, and that is something between them and God. If we believe that Christ is merciful, then how can one really state that they are all in Hell? In fact, isn't it a bit sadistic even to suppose that every person in that sort of anguish should also go unto eternal torment?

As far as euthanasia, it is something we do with animals all the time. We do it because we know that it is the reasonable, moral thing to do. Also in war, if a person is injured beyond being able to recover, a soldier may give them a near lethal dose of morphine.
These things happen.
And if a person is terminally ill and the rest of their life is nothing but pain, then it is simply in vain for them to continue in it just the same as the examples above.

Christ will ultimately be the decider.
Those that kill themselves out of despair are often not of sound mind. Intent will be the decider. People like Kevorkian will have to answer for their crimes.

 

[Michie]

Prayers for you and your father eastcoast.

Sorry for your loss. Same here regarding the decision. My Father 87 is now in assisted living and struggling. He is losing his ability to transfer from wheelchair to bed or lounge chair. He is struggling with congestive heart, has loss the ability to walk and now this. His mind is sharp, he is scared and Incan sense he wants to go.

My confession is that I wish he would. I hate to see him suffer and lose all dignity withndiapers and such.

I am NOT for euthanasia, but Can understand hospice in some cases. Obviously not mynfathets being that he is cognitively sharp.

 

[benedictaoo]

Sorry for your loss. Same here regarding the decision. My Father 87 is now in assisted living and struggling. He is losing his ability to transfer from wheelchair to bed or lounge chair. He is struggling with congestive heart, has loss the ability to walk and now this. His mind is sharp, he is scared and Incan sense he wants to go.

My confession is that I wish he would. I hate to see him suffer and lose all dignity withndiapers and such.

I am NOT for euthanasia, but Can understand hospice in some cases. Obviously not mynfathets being that he is cognitively sharp.

Thanks and I'm sorry for your losses. I'll pray for your Dad and the situation y'all are in. It doesn't make sense to us but it's in God's hands. I believe when we suffer and when God does take us, He will show all the good our suffering and trusting in His Providence brought about, we'll get to see all the souls we we're able to have a part in saving.

I think we all should say a prayer for all those we lost. Eternal rest grant to them and may the perpetual light shine upon them through the mercy of God may they rest in peace, amen.

 

[benedictaoo]

When I think about people choosing to die....because they are going to die anyways soon......my mind flashes back to 9/11. Where people above the airplane crash, jumped. Those people up there were dying, some already dead from heat/smoke. The towers hadn't even fallen yet, and I don't think the people up there knew they were going to fall so soon. However for those that jumped, the situation was so desperate that they believed they were going to die anyways. In retrospect if they didn't jump, they were still dead, if not from heat/smoke, from tower collapse.

Seeing things like that on TV changes ones perspective on suicide, at least for me it did.

Sure its a bit different then someone dying of natural causes. Since 9/11 was man made, and for the people up there, death was coming a lot faster then those slowly dying on some medical bed. Still.....I am uncomfortable in making sure to prevent those who are dying, to not allow a less painful way out.

What we saw was panic at it worse. What we saw was evil. No one took their life, they were murdered.

 

[Wgw]

You seem to be ignoring all the larger concepts of human dignity and focusing it on one final choice at the end of life.

"Do we possess dignity and a right to life by virtue of the kind of entity we are, namely, a human being—the one type of bodily creature known to us who has a rational nature? Or is dignity something we possess only by virtue of our acquisition or realization of certain qualities (immediately exercisable capacities) that human beings in certain stages and conditions possess (or exhibit) and others do not, and that some possess in greater measure than others, e.g., self-awareness, consciousness, rationality?"
Read more:http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=20-01-004-e#ixzz3o0uBhEN5

“Death with dignity” offers not only an escape from pain and humiliation, but a rational and apparently noble way to leave this life. All it requires is that you declare yourself God. Make yourself the lord of life and death, and you can do what you want. All you have to do, as a last, definitive act, is to do what you’ve been doing all your life, every time you sin: declare yourself, on the matter at hand, the final authority, the last judge, the one vote that counts."
http://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2010/11/death-dignified-by-christ

Hence, in my view, the concept of human dignity is really only safe in a society with a firm belief in the equal dignity of human persons. Concerns have been expressed about rationing care, depriving people (especially those with diminished capacities) of needed care, and even of encouraging people to die. These are all serious and legitimate concerns, and their presence suggests an uncertainty about our continued commitment to equal personal dignity. (Gilbert Meilaender)
Read more:http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=23-02-036-i#ixzz3o0wyp6RG

People are losing the real definition of dignity.

You raise a very excellent point; to die with dignity is to face the end with equanimity, not seeking to hasten it but to approach it with a stiff upper lip and gritty forbearance. Which is easier said than done; exploiting the understandable exisistential terror that can grip people faced with a fixed lifespan is one of the depraved practices of euthanasia campaigners. I fail entirely to see the fundamental moral difference between a pro-euthanasia activist and a terrorist or serial killer; was not the whole point of defeating the Nazi regime to put an end to this kind of rubbish?

 

[Wgw]

That's a good point. Thankfully at least there were not that many people right below the WTC.

There were several near misses. The chilling sound of jumpers impacting the ground is one of the more horrific attributes of the footage taken during the rescue operations in 9/11.

 

[benedictaoo]

@Cos-play, as a Catholic, are you arguing against the Church's teaching on euthanasia? If so, a friendly FYI, we aren't allowed to argue against the Church's teaching in OBOB. We can discuss an issue but not argue a point that she's wrong.

 

[Michie]

Amen.

Thanks and I'm sorry for your losses. I'll pray for your Dad and the situation y'all are in. It doesn't make sense to us but it's in God's hands. I believe when we suffer and when God does take us, He will show all the good our suffering and trusting in His Providence brought about, we'll get to see all the souls we we're able to have a part in saving.

I think we all should say a prayer for all those we lost. Eternal rest grant to them and may the perpetual light shine upon them through the mercy of God may they rest in peace, amen.

 

[benedictaoo]

I wanted faith based perspectives on this issue Charlie. I'm well aware of the secular arguments for euthanasia. I think this is all going to boil down to an individual's choice in that matter. My suggestion to those that do not want to exercise that option is to get a living will.

I thought he was Cosmic...

 

[Michie]

It's because it is. Glad to see him!

I thought he was Cosmic...

 

[benedictaoo]

Well he's about to be banned for the millionth and one time if he keeps arguing against Church teaching, if someone reports him. I won't. I like Cos. How many times can he resurrect?