De-Americanizing the forum

[Armoured]

sounds like a former cricket commentator Richie Benaud

 

[Vicomte13]

Vicomte, sometimes I think French is an attitude as much as anything else. (Says she who inherited a share of that attitude on her mother's side!)

True, that.

I hear from my French West Indian wife that I am NOT French.

It matters not that I have a French name, indeed an old French peerage, that there's a village and a castle in Normandy named after me (from which we were chased long ago), that I went to three colleges in France, got my law degree there and practiced law there before I practiced it here. It matters not how well I speak, or how much I understand.

To her, Italian-Americans are "Italian" in many ways, but whatever I am, it is not French.

I am not permitted to be French.
Now, mind you, my wife still has the nationality, and my wife is a dual citizen, and I can take French citizenship whenever I want it, for a signature. I have the French "green card" - the work papers.

It does not matter: I am not French. Ancestry, language, education, work history, marriage, knowledge...it does not matter.

"They do not make them like you in France, and they never will."

It is the same with the French Canadians. Some of the Quebecois really ACHE to be French, but they are Not French according to my wife. Martiniquais? Yes, they're French, French West Indian, but Haitians? Absolutely Not French(!). Cajuns? NOT French! 2 Centuries of inbreeding, but Not French.

In fact, according to my French wife I am not permitted to be anything but AMERICAN. You are American, point final a la ligne!

Celtic? Basque? Saami? Scandinavian? Dutch? I am not allowed to be Irish either, or Basque, or Viking...no..."Tu es A-me-ri-cain! Point!"

So, there you have it. The judgment of the French woman with whom I share my life is final - period - I am A-MER-I-CAN. Not Irish, or Celtic, or Scandinavian, or Dutch, or Basque, or Spanish, none of the places of any ancestors - and most absolutely certainly NOT FRENCH.

(Not even "Nouvelle francais" - not even "New French". Just "not", as in NOT!)

Which is a bit of a paradox, given the old French devise: "Est anglais qui peut, est francais qui veut."
Well, I've "veut", but even if I take the nationality outright, I will still be NOT French, according to my French wife.

As she puts it, "You are not French. You are from Michigan!"

But, but, Detroit, and Sault Ste Marie, and the Mackinac, these were all founded by the French!

"A detail. The French put a town there, but it is Michigan, not France! How could this place ever be France! It is Siberia!"

(She has a point.)

So, on my wife's cultural map, "Michigan" is the polar opposite of France.

"You walk BAREFOOT in the forest! Nobody in France ever does this. You eat O-possum. Nobody French ever would eat o-possum. You go outside naked (she exaggerates - I wear shorts) and walk barefoot in the snow to the mailbox. This is not normal. This is NOT FRENCH! You are from Michigan!"

She says that word "Michigan" the way one might expect a Ramallahn refugee would say "Israel".

Michigan is a frozen hell - whatever Michigan is, France is not. Whatever France is, Michigan is not, and whatever comes from Michigan IS NOT FRENCH. Thus says she.

So, there's the sliding scale.

France and French are at one end of it. Michigan and "Michigander" is at the other end of it.

I can sort of see her point.

 

[Paidiske]

I'm laughing. I can totally see my grandmother having had a similar conversation with her not-French husband.

In me it's blended with other things, but I think I might be able to pass if I really needed to. And with quite a bit of language practice, because I have little opportunity these days.

 

[Vicomte13]

I'm laughing. I can totally see my grandmother having had a similar conversation with her not-French husband.

In me it's blended with other things, but I think I might be able to pass if I really needed to. And with quite a bit of language practice, because I have little opportunity these days.

In France, people who don't know me think I'm German (which I'm not, at all - Alsatian, yes, but that's French, not German) or "from the North" (Scandinavia, Russia)...they got the geography sort of right.

 

[tadoflamb]

"Real" French is an interesting concept. Does that mean a "French citizen"? Does it mean somebody who was born and raised in France? Does France, for that purpose, include the French West Indies or la Reunion? It should, because these are integral parts of France.

What about Tahiti and the Marquesas? These are French territories.

Of course, people grow up speaking French as a native tongue in places that used to be French colonies, are they French?

What about Americans of French origin? How far off the boat must one be to stop being Italian, or Greek. How about French?

It's an interesting discussion I have with my French native wife.

She's a real French citizen with The Little Prince as her avatar. I'll call her up for you. @thehehe, I have someone who wants to meet you!

 

[thehehe]

"Real" French is an interesting concept. Does that mean a "French citizen"? Does it mean somebody who was born and raised in France? Does France, for that purpose, include the French West Indies or la Reunion? It should, because these are integral parts of France.

Born, raised, live in France and will certainly die here, and from the metropolitan France.

Yes, being French is a kind of attitude, and a very particular one, not always nice I must say (now, they are a lot of kind of French people, an Alsacian has nothing to do with a Parisian, a Breton or a Corse). But yes, I am fully French, even if my grandfather was Italian (however I can only say a few banalities in Italian, I really cannot speak it when my father is bilingual).

De-americanizing the forum is a good idea, understanding the American mind is really difficult for me... And leads me to some misunderstandings. Well. It is so hard to debate in an another language - especially when you are French, as a French is, by definition, only fluent in French
The USA and their people can be a kind of mystery for me. It is normal, somewhere, I don't read the same books, listen to the same jokes or poems, I cannot understand totally the beauty of their language and they cannot do the same for mine.

In France, people who don't know me think I'm German (which I'm not, at all - Alsatian, yes, but that's French, not German) or "from the North" (Scandinavia, Russia)...they got the geography sort of right.

I am from Lorraine, so I know very well Alsace and heard many times their language in their lost countrysides. It is a common joke in my region to call people from Alsace (and Metz + the Moselle) Germans, or to wish they stayed Germans (they are many many jokes about Alsacians). I often joke about that with people from Metz especially, but it can be an insult in some mouths. Anyway, you come from one of the most beautiful region of the country. I would love to live there for a while, at Colmar or more likely Strasbourg, such an amazing place.

 

[Vicomte13]

Born, raised, live in France and will certainly die here, and from the metropolitan France.

Yes, being French is a kind of attitude, and a very particular one, not always nice I must say (now, they are a lot of kind of French people, an Alsacian has nothing to do with a Parisian, a Breton or a Corse). But yes, I am fully French, even if my grandfather was Italian (however I can only say a few banalities in Italian, I really cannot speak it when my father is bilingual).

De-americanizing the forum is a good idea, understanding the American mind is really difficult for me... And leads me to some misunderstandings. Well. It is so hard to debate in an another language - especially when you are French, as a French is, by definition, only fluent in French
The USA and their people can be a kind of mystery for me. It is normal, somewhere, I don't read the same books, listen to the same jokes or poems, I cannot understand totally the beauty of their language and they cannot do the same for mine.


I am from Lorraine, so I know very well Alsace and heard many times their language in their lost countrysides. It is a common joke in my region to call people from Alsace (and Metz + the Moselle) Germans, or to wish they stayed Germans (they are many many jokes about Alsacians). I often joke about that with people from Metz especially, but it can be an insult in some mouths. Anyway, you come from one of the most beautiful region of the country. I would love to live there for a while, at Colmar or more likely Strasbourg, such an amazing place.

Bonsoir, et merci pour ton message. Tu as ecrit (et bien ecrit, je peut dire) dans ma langue, alors je trouve qu'il est normal que je reponds dans la tienne.

Alors prenez garde, je vais parler francais!

Une partie de ma famille est venue d'Alsace, une autre partie de la Normandie, et encore une trouser me des Pays Basques... Malgre tout cela, il eat inadmissible que je sois francais!

 

[Genersis]

While I support using the correct English, I object to calling it the "Queen's English".

I'm sticking with "UKSE".
"United Kingdom Standard English"

...or "United Republic Standard English" when I'm feeling especially treasonous.

 

[Vicomte13]

Bonsoir, et merci pour ton message. Tu as ecrit (et bien ecrit, je peut dire) dans ma langue, alors je trouve qu'il est normal que je reponds dans la tienne.

Alors prenez garde, je vais parler francais!

Une partie de ma famille est venue d'Alsace, une autre partie de la Normandie, et encore une trouser me des Pays Basques... Malgre tout cela, il eat inadmissible que je sois francais!

Autocorrect is miserable. English autocorrect when you're trying to type in French is infernal. "Une troisieme" - a third, became a "trouser", reducing my story to a pant load?

 

[Vicomte13]

While I support using the correct English, I object to calling it the "Queen's English".

I'm sticking with "UKSE".
"United Kingdom Standard English"

...or "United Republic Standard English" when I'm feeling especially treasonous.

The Crown is NOT amused!

 

[tadoflamb]

Autocorrect is miserable. English autocorrect when you're trying to type in French is infernal.

Malgre tout cela, il eat inadmissible que je sois francais!

Il eat?

Do you know what's infernal?

A French keyboard.

 

[thehehe]

Il eat?

Do you know what's infernal?

A French keyboard.

I think the same about an English one or a German one, even worse.

As a grammar and spelling nazi in my language, I understand your despair... When in France we learn American English as it is enough to communicate and much more easier. Yes.. when a teacher says that about French, I immediately answer with anger, so I can relate...

I have this autocorrect on my phone
when I try to write in English, so it is why you can sometimes read a French word into my posts. But I am usually very careful with it!
Don't worry Vicomte, I understood you wanted to say "troisième"! By the way, why this name of Vicomte? Do you have aristocratic blood? I have a friend with parents who are comte and comtesse, but I never met any vicomte, so I was just wondering!

 

[Colin]

When in France we learn American English

Shame on you .

Why not real English from your neighbours across La Manche ?

I've visited France ten times , thehehe .

And despite what we English are supposed to think about France and the French , I love the country and its people , but I suppose I hate frogs .

 

[Vicomte13]

Il eat?

Do you know what's infernal?

A French keyboard.

SAINTS PRESERVE US (from autocorrect): IL EST!

 

[Vicomte13]

By the way, why this name of Vicomte? Do you have aristocratic blood? I have a friend with parents who are comte and comtesse, but I never met any vicomte, so I was just wondering!

I am told (have been told all my life) that I am the 13th Vicomte of a place in Normandy, where there is still the forest and chateau bearing my name. The last holder of my line in that place was the 3rd Vicomte of it, but he went Huguenot and so had to flee the chateau-fort that was on the spot then in the 1500s to Nantes (as la Haute Normandie was League territory). And with that, the line "fut eteint" from the perspective of peerage.

But of course it wasn't REALLY "eteint" at all, it was just out of favor.

A century and some in Nantes, and when the Sun King revoked the eponymous Edict thereof, the line of the de ______ (tell you that, and I've told you my actual name!) left France for the wilds of New Belgium, which is now called New Jersey. Eventually this side of the pond because independent, and these French folk moved westwards, then northwards, cycling around America. The unusual name with the strange decapitalization remained, and a penchant to learn French. The "Huguenotism" turned into various things. Obviously it did not stick with me.

So I wear my "13 Vicomte de [PLACE IN NORMANDY] rather proudly, because of the UTTER absurdity of it all. But also because it is nevertheless true, and starts conversations.

Noblesse de l'epee - it's the real thing.

 

[Armoured]

I am told (have been told all my life) that I am the 13th Vicomte of a place in Normandy, where there is still the forest and chateau bearing my name. The last holder of my line in that place was the 3rd Vicomte of it, but he went Huguenot and so had to flee the chateau-fort that was on the spot then in the 1500s to Nantes (as la Haute Normandie was League territory). And with that, the line "fut eteint" from the perspective of peerage.

But of course it wasn't REALLY "eteint" at all, it was just out of favor.

A century and some in Nantes, and when the Sun King revoked the eponymous Edict thereof, the line of the de ______ (tell you that, and I've told you my actual name!) left France for the wilds of New Belgium, which is now called New Jersey. Eventually this side of the pond because independent, and these French folk moved westwards, then northwards, cycling around America. The unusual name with the strange decapitalization remained, and a penchant to learn French. The "Huguenotism" turned into various things. Obviously it did not stick with me.

So I wear my "13 Vicomte de [PLACE IN NORMANDY] rather proudly, because of the UTTER absurdity of it all. But also because it is nevertheless true, and starts conversations.

Noblesse de l'epee - it's the real thing.

I am told (have been told all my life) that I am the 13th Vicomte of a place in Normandy, where there is still the forest and chateau bearing my name. The last holder of my line in that place was the 3rd Vicomte of it, but he went Huguenot and so had to flee the chateau-fort that was on the spot then in the 1500s to Nantes (as la Haute Normandie was League territory). And with that, the line "fut eteint" from the perspective of peerage.

But of course it wasn't REALLY "eteint" at all, it was just out of favor.

A century and some in Nantes, and when the Sun King revoked the eponymous Edict thereof, the line of the de ______ (tell you that, and I've told you my actual name!) left France for the wilds of New Belgium, which is now called New Jersey. Eventually this side of the pond because independent, and these French folk moved westwards, then northwards, cycling around America. The unusual name with the strange decapitalization remained, and a penchant to learn French. The "Huguenotism" turned into various things. Obviously it did not stick with me.

So I wear my "13 Vicomte de [PLACE IN NORMANDY] rather proudly, because of the UTTER absurdity of it all. But also because it is nevertheless true, and starts conversations.

Noblesse de l'epee - it's the real thing.

I'm pretender to a baronial seat myself. Small world.

 

[Vicomte13]

I'm pretender to a baronial seat myself. Small world.

Of course, you live in a land that still has a monarchy. America hasn't had one for going on two and a half centuries, and France's is also long gone, so in my case, holding onto a title over a fief that no longer exists, four centuries and some change after the line was attainted for its religious beliefs is...quaint, to say the least.

But then, the crown has ALSO been attainted and is gone, so there is nobody to "set me right", and besides, I'm American (as my wife will insist), so it's meaningless in every sense.

Except one.

They really were knights. They really did carry a sword and ride people down for centuries and centuries. They really did that over here too, and the net result of all of that Norman inbreeding for that particular skill has left a legacy of generations of horsemen and military folks. My daughter is one of the best fencers in the world and will probably end up at the Olympics - so yes, there actually is a genetic component of athleticism for the military arts, and after generations and generations of "selective marriage" (read: inbreeding) the traits that made warlords warlords in the first place, and kept their heirs on the seat, DO pass. My grandfather was a harness racer. I was a Navy pilot. My daughter will be an Olympian. You know the names of a couple of my great-great grandsires and collaterals, because of their military achievements.

So, while the word for a count with no castle is "pretender", and the word for an aristocrat with no money is "a joke", the word for those who won and held those ancient titles by war, descended to today, is often "champion". And that's real. It's an innate advantage in bloodsports.

 

[SHETALKSTOANGELS]

Blimey, it's late, pass us the Eccles cakes, and mind you don't forget my cuppa of Earl Grey tea !

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

No worries mate. Let's go to the pub, have a pint and grab somethin to eat, eh?

 

[Godlovesmetwo]

Who was the American who said "a little bit of violence never hurt anyone?"
John Wayne maybe