David Daleiden Doubles Down

PapaZoom

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They lie, commit fraud, and break numerous laws for profit. They sin against God and man.

Comparing and ranking their sin by PPs sin is not scriptural. Their sin stands on its own and it is not mitigated or aggravated by anything PP does.

Their sin is theirs alone.

I think you're off your spiritual rocker.
 
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PapaZoom

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In what way? Have you ever seen a hip surgery? It is not a pretty sight and it is exceedingly intrusive. It took me half a year to be able to walk again and I was young and in good health.
I get it. Hip surgery is just like abortion where innocent human beings have their hips ripped from their bodies.
 
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PapaZoom

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I will review it on the morrow and give you my opinion.

If your opinion differs from the facts it will be worthless. You don't put aborted fetuses back together AFTER an abortion unless they were ripped apart DURING abortion. So you'll have to acknowledge I'm absolutely right on that point. You can only offer your opinion on why that FACT does or doesn't matter. Go look at a few pictures too where aborted fetuses are torn apart. Ask yourself how they got that way.
 
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PapaZoom

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Which is worse? Ripping apart a live unborn human being in its mother's womb or procuring a fake ID for the purpose of exposing possible illegal behavior on the part of an industry that legally kills the unborn.

Answer: Killing the unborn is legal so therefore it's just fine with some CF Christians. However, falsifying government documents is bad. You know, like the false government documents that helped the Jews escape the Nazis. Bad! It was legal to kill the Jews as it is legal to kill a human fetus. It was illegal to falsify documents to escape the Nazis as it is illegal to produce a fake ID as CMP did.
 
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Mayzoo

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Which is worse? Ripping apart a live unborn human being in its mother's womb or procuring a fake ID for the purpose of exposing possible illegal behavior on the part of an industry that legally kills the unborn.

Answer: Killing the unborn is legal so therefore it's just fine with some CF Christians. However, falsifying government documents is bad. You know, like the false government documents that helped the Jews escape the Nazis. Bad! It was legal to kill the Jews as it is legal to kill a human fetus. It was illegal to falsify documents to escape the Nazis as it is illegal to produce a fake ID as CMP did.

Your question is irrelevant to God and the legal system.

My sin is not lessened because Charles Manson is a serial killer. What makes you believe Daleiden's sin is lessened because PP performs abortions?
 
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PapaZoom

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“Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand” (Romans 14:4). “You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat” (Romans 14:10).
 
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Mayzoo

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“Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand” (Romans 14:4). “You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat” (Romans 14:10).

You are getting it now. You do not get to judge Daleiden's sin as lesser than PP sin. Only God is the judge. You may state he sinned and will he will be judged by God.

Neither you nor PP can make Daleiden's sin any lesser or greater than it is. God is the judge of all our sin. I have never read any scripture to indicate he judges our sin on a comparative or sliding scale.

We each stand before God and answer for our actions; not our actions as compared to some else's actions.
 
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Belk

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Suction Abortion: Used during the first three months of pregnancy - A suction tube (27 times stronger than a home vacuum cleaner) is inserted into the womb. The powerful suction tears the baby apart limb from limb and sucks it from the womb along with the placenta. The baby's remains are deposited into an attached waste bottle.

From your link.
ProLife OBGYN said:
Banning dismemberment abortions does not ban abortion in general. Women will still be able to access earlier abortions throughout the United States. In fact, banning dismemberment abortions will actually improve the health of women throughout the nation. Dismemberment abortions are performed in the second and third trimesters of pregnancy.

So it would appear that per your source this is incorrect.

Dilation and Curettage (D&C): Used at the end of the third month of pregnancy (approximately 12 weeks) - The cervix is dialated, ring forceps are inserted into the womb and the baby is extracted piece by piece. Then a curette (a sharp knife in a loop shape) is inserted and used to scrape away any of the baby or the placenta that remains. Profuse bleeding follows.

From Wikipedia

Wikipedia said:
The woman is typically put under monitored anesthesia care (MAC) before the procedure begins. The first step in a D&C is to dilate the cervix. A curette, a metal rod with a handle on one end and a sharp loop on the other, is inserted into the uterus through the dilated cervix. The curette is used to gently scrape the lining of the uterus and remove the tissue in the uterus. This tissue is examined for completeness (in the case of abortion or miscarriage treatment) or pathologically for abnormalities (in the case of treatment for abnormal bleeding)

Sounds rather different then what they describe. I also found this interesting.

Wikipedia said:
Because medical and non-invasive methods of abortion now exist, and because D&C requires heavy sedation or general anesthesia and has higher risks of complication, the procedure has been declining as a method of abortion. The World Health Organization recommends D&C as a method of surgical abortion only when manual vacuum aspiration is unavailable

So, while it is possible the fetus is dismembered it is not the intent. I also do not see anything about ring forceps being used nor does your link mention anything about it other then to claim "dismemberment abortions happen in the second and third trimester.

According to webMD an abortion during the second trimester is more likely to be a D&E.

Dilation and Extraction (D&E): Used after 13 weeks - The cervix is dialated and the unborn child is dismembered with plier-like forceps. Force is needed to pull the baby apart. The instrument is used to seize a leg or other part of the body and then, with a twisting motion, tear it from the baby's body. The baby's spine is snapped and the skull crushed. After the baby parts are removed, they are reassembled outside the womb to be sure all are removed. Frequently baby parts are left inside the mother's womb. This can cause serious complications and sometimes death.

Why would you dismember something with pliers? Why not a cutting instrument? Let's see what wiki says shall we?

Wikipedia said:
The first step in a D&E is to dilate the cervix. This is often begun about a day before the surgical procedure, and often involves the insertion of multiple laminaria sticks into the cervix. Enlarging the opening of the cervix enables surgical instruments such as a curette or forceps to be inserted into the uterus.[2]

The second step is to remove the fetus. Either a local anesthetic or general anesthesia is given to the woman. A cannula is passed into the uterus. The cannula is attached by tubing to a bottle and a pump that provides a vacuum to remove the fetus from the uterus. Forceps are inserted into the uterus through the vagina and used to extract any remaining tissue. This is more likely in pregnancies of 16 weeks or more. A curette is used to scrape the lining of the uterus and remove tissue in the uterus. Lastly, the vacuum is used to ensure removal of fetal body remains in the uterus (such fetal remains can cause serious infections in the woman). The pieces of the fetal body are also examined to ensure that the entire fetus was removed

Sounds much less horrific. In fact it looks like your source uses loaded language in order to create an emotional response.

The other procedures are just as horrible. So yes, they rip limbs off.

What I found @PapaZoom, was that it is possible a fetus is dismembered. But that is not the intent and it appears to be the new buzz word. I found a lot of pro-life sites mentioning dismemberment but zero neutral sites that did so. Nothing on WebMD or other informational sites. I did find a source that I would think pro-choice that says this is the new emotive language being used to attack abortion.

In conclusion I find a lack of information to back up your claims. I conclude that it can happen in some cases but certainly not the majority and it is mostly highlighted as an attempt to emotionally manipulate people.
 
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KCfromNC

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We shall see how this fleshes out. It ain't over till the fat lady sings.

She has sang in 20+ states so far - and none of them found PP guilty of any wrongdoing. At some point it is time to realize that a pattern when you see it. What's the thing where you do the same thing over and over and expect different results?
 
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rjs330

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All he has to do is prove it in court that he was lying while dealing with PP. Which should do wonders for his defense against the separate fraud case brought against him.



And specific examples you have in mind?
Honestly I don't fell like cutting and copying a bunch of stuff on this. There are cases all over the net. "Gotcha" videos have been around forever and I don't recall any journalists going to jail for it.

Anyway I am not justifying him breaking the law. Merely pointing out that I find it hypocritical to do so. If he gets prosecuted we better see more journalists going to jail for it. How much you want to bet it won't happen? I think this is politically driven. Again, not justifying. Just commenting.
 
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Mayzoo

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Honestly I don't fell like cutting and copying a bunch of stuff on this. There are cases all over the net. "Gotcha" videos have been around forever and I don't recall any journalists going to jail for it.

Anyway I am not justifying him breaking the law. Merely pointing out that I find it hypocritical to do so. If he gets prosecuted we better see more journalists going to jail for it. How much you want to bet it won't happen? I think this is politically driven. Again, not justifying. Just commenting.

Daleiden went to greater illegal extents than most journalists:

He created a fake company to "launder" the fetal tissue though. He created and used a fake driver's license which is tampering with government records and fraud. He illegally recorded conversations. He offered, in writing, to buy fetal tissue.

I am very doubtful you will find many/any journalists that committed this many misdemeanors, and then topped those off with a felony for good measure, so they could publish an article.
 
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