Loudmouth

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You're right of course, but even by *their* (gas rather than plasma) standards, it's easy enough to understand why the plasma interacts and collides whereas the stars do not. LM acts like the mass located in suns must be 'magical' simply because the stars didn't collide, and pass on through. Apparently great distances between suns are a form of "magic" to LM. ;)

You mean the mass that is glowing and visible? That mass? The mass that is also absorbing light unlike the areas found around the bullet clusters? The mass that is producing drag and clumping together with visible mass? That plasma?

Somehow, your plasma magically disappears and becomes undetectable. Fairy dust indeed.
 
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DogmaHunter

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No, you claimed "We KNOW there is something there exerting gravity (or something like gravity), because, again, we can measure it." We have only observations, and hypothesis that only considers the gravitational force, while ignoring everything else.
We have measured no gravitational force at all, or any force for that matter


Dark Matter

The dark matter is undetectable by any electromagnetic radiation at our disposal - we can't see it in the visible range, can't detect it by radio waves at the low end of the spectrum or by the xrays at the high end of the spectrum. It appears not to interact by the electromagnetic force. The obvious question is then "How do we know it is there?" For some 80 years we have known the answer to that - it interacts by gravity and therby produces measurable results



Yes, and that placeholder is plasma and electric currents, that is confirmed even in laboratory experiments, that somehow becomes black holes when discussing astrophysics. The problem is astronomers refuse to give up their exotic claims for that placeholder, for a force we have observed everywhere we have gone and taken a measurement, electric fields and electric currents. Instead they stick to their tired old theory, because they refuse to admit they have been wrong for close to 100 years. Instead they will continue to waste billions of tax payers dollars searching for an exotic particle that does not exist. But exclaim with a 98% certainty that these particles exist, when their own studies place the odds at .19% greater than just a noise only detection. How one is 98% certain from a theory that is only .19% better than just plain random noise is beyond me, unless that 98% certainty is more a matter of faith and wishful thinking.

Why aren't you on the cover of every single science magazine and on the payroll of all universities for giving lectures and thereby sharing what you apparantly know and no other physicist knows?
Why don't you have a nobel prize for solving a century old problem in physics?

It's hilarious... so, it's a conspiracy theory among astrophysicists ha?

LOL!!!

Get real, dude. Solving this problem would mean instant fame and glory for the one who does it. Do you actually really believe that nobody comes forward because they are emotionally attached to a status quo that lasted for 80+ years?

Really?
 
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Michael

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I have 2 points for you.

1. science is not about taking sides, it's a collective effort to find out how the universe works.

Ah, to be young and naive. :)

This "you've had.." talk is ridiculous. "We' didn't have anything. Physicists are positing ideas and testing them. MOST ideas that are presented in science turn out to be wrong after testing. And that's fine.
What's the point in *testing* them if you won't abide by the results and modify your theory accordingly? Where does the *dogma* end if not in the lab?

2. 4th time. "dark matter" is not a specific thing. It's a place holder.
So far it's proven to be nothing more than a placeholder term for plasma that the mainstream has finally found, but simply ignores anyway! They haven't even updated their model even one time as a result of any of their recent findings of additional mass. Furthermore, all their claims of knowledge about what 'dark matter isn't' have been *falsified repeatedly* since their falsified claims were first written!

These "exotic matter theories" you speak off, are pretty much irrelavent to the point about dark matter.
If your statement were actually true, they would not be claiming it's not composed of baryonic matter, nor could they claim to know *exactly* how much there is.

It's not a thing. It's a place holder. We know there is something, but we don't know what. We need a name to refer to that which we know exists but are unable to explain. No physicist claims to know what it is. It could very well be that it turns out to be something really unexpected (in fact, I'ld say that that is most likely). But it does not matter at all to the point being made. There is something have an observable effect. We don't know what it is nore what its properties are. But it's there.
I'm not complaining about them claiming to know what it is made of, I'm complaining about them claiming to know what it *isn't* made of!

You still missed a *key* issue. In order for their nucleosynthesis numbers to work out correctly, it *must* be made of 'exotic' matter. That's their whole problem in a nutshell. They *can't* let it be made of ordinary baryons, or their entire theory goes up in smoke! You're naive if you think that's not the motive for claiming to know what it's *not* made of. That's the only reason they made that claim in the first place, and each of their three reasons were falsified *repeatedly* since those words were put there. They haven't changed them at all!

I find it hilarious that you apparantly think that you have it all figured out.
When did I claim to have everything figured out again? Peratt figured out how to do away with the need for exotic forms of matter, not me.

Why isn't this information rocking the scientific community as we speak?
Dogma dies hard, particularly dogma that lacks empirical laboratory support.

I know the answer, but do you?
You don't know enough about EU/PC theory to know the answer, nor have you debated the mainstream in cyberspace for the past 9 years. You just think you know.

It basically comes down to dollars. They can't just admit they screwed up now, or reputations go up in flames, and reliable funding channels start to dry up. Better they build another gamma-ray camera, point it at the sky and claim WIMPS did it, and *to hell with the lab results*.
 
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bhsmte

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Dark Matter

The dark matter is undetectable by any electromagnetic radiation at our disposal - we can't see it in the visible range, can't detect it by radio waves at the low end of the spectrum or by the xrays at the high end of the spectrum. It appears not to interact by the electromagnetic force. The obvious question is then "How do we know it is there?" For some 80 years we have known the answer to that - it interacts by gravity and therby produces measurable results





Why aren't you on the cover of every single science magazine and on the payroll of all universities for giving lectures and thereby sharing what you apparantly know and no other physicist knows?
Why don't you have a nobel prize for solving a century old problem in physics?

It's hilarious... so, it's a conspiracy theory among astrophysicists ha?

LOL!!!

Get real, dude. Solving this problem would mean instant fame and glory for the one who does it. Do you actually really believe that nobody comes forward because they are emotionally attached to a status quo that lasted for 80+ years?

Really?

Your last paragraph sums up my feelings exactly. Very very difficult for me to fathom, of all the physicists in the world, they are all intimidated into not discovering evidence that would make the plasma theory acceptable.

It is similar to those who believe all of science has banded together to agree on evolution, just to prove the bible wrong and not one person, has been able to provide evidence to show evolution is wrong.

It really comes down to one wanting so bad to believe in something, that they will hang on to whatever tidbit they have to support their belief, while they in turn trash everything else that goes against it.
 
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Loudmouth

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It basically comes down to dollars. They can't just admit they screwed up now, or reputations go up in flames, and reliable funding channels turn dry up. Better they build another gamma-ray camera, point it at the sky and claim WIMPS did it, and *to hell with the lab results*.

Isn't that the claim that most crackpot theories have in common?
 
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bhsmte

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Isn't that the claim that most crackpot theories have in common?

I would also ask, if it is so obvious these scientists screwed up and have it wrong, why haven't the people who give them the grant money figured it out?
 
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Michael

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Dark Matter

The dark matter is undetectable by any electromagnetic radiation at our disposal - we can't see it in the visible range, can't detect it by radio waves at the low end of the spectrum or by the xrays at the high end of the spectrum.


Every word of that is *false*. We *have* since found all kids of additional mass in just the last few years, *all* of it in the form of *plasma*.

Colossal Gas Cloud Discovered Around Milky Way | Space.com

That's just the mass they found in 2012, not to mention the miscount of the stars in galaxies and the fact the galaxies are twice as bright as they *assumed*.

It appears not to interact by the electromagnetic force.

How do they know that? They are essentially peddling *limited technology* as some sort of knowledge statement about what that missing mass does or does not do. The dogma just began....

The obvious question is then "How do we know it is there?" For some 80 years we have known the answer to that - it interacts by gravity and therby produces measurable results

Again, this simply *assumes* that only gravity is relevant with describing the movements of *plasma*. You can't even know if it's *gravity* that is acting on the process or *some other force*. Peratt's theory demonstrates that it could be ordinary EM fields!
 
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Michael

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Isn't that the claim that most crackpot theories have in common?

Is that really what you've been reduced to now? You have nothing but ad homs to try to make up for all your lack of empirical support in terms of justifying any real cause/effect relationships? It's just my fault that all three of those last 'tests' you did on exotic matter came up empty too?
 
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Loudmouth

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Is that really what you've been reduced to now? You have nothing but ad homs to try to make up for all your lack of empirical support in terms of justifying any real cause/effect relationships? It's just my fault that all three of those last 'tests' you did on exotic matter came up empty too?

Is it my fault that the Bullet Cluster continues to evidence exotic matter? Is it my fault that the scientific community agrees that it is evidence? Is it my fault that not a single researcher has published a paper demonstrating that the observations in the Bullet Cluster are due to plasma?

But when the going gets rough, just claim that you are being persecuted by a world wide scientific conspiracy. Yeah. That works.

Oh, and the only place to find support for my claims is on non-peer reviewed websites run by non-professionals. Yeah, that works too.
 
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Michael

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Your last paragraph sums up my feelings exactly. Very very difficult for me to fathom, of all the physicists in the world, they are all intimidated into not discovering evidence that would make the plasma theory acceptable.

Huh? Who said anything about anyone "not discovering evidence" to support EU/PC theory? They're doing it *constantly* in fact! They found evidence to support EU/PC theory when they found out they botched their baryonic mass estimates by underestimating the amount of light being scattered. They did it again when the discovered they underestimated the number of stars in a galaxy. They did it again when they found out that black holes were much larger than they thought. They did it again in the lab three straight times in the last 18 months too when they found evidence that their own beliefs in exotic matter were flawed. They did it again when they found all that plasma around our galaxy in 2012. What are you talking about? They are *destroying* their own beliefs, and finding more plasma *constantly*.

It is similar to those who believe all of science has banded together to agree on evolution, just to prove the bible wrong and not one person, has been able to provide evidence to show evolution is wrong.
The difference is that the EU/PC community has published and put forth their own peer reviewed support and they do have *real and actual* evidence to support an *opposing* theory.

It really comes down to one wanting so bad to believe in something, that they will hang on to whatever tidbit they have to support their belief, while they in turn trash everything else that goes against it.
There's a certain amount of irony in that paragraph from my vantage point. Three straight lab failures, yet they want to believe in it so badly, they just don't care. The mainstream constantly tries to 'trash' EU/PC theory, but always by citing *random websites*, never based on *published* material. Same dance as creationists, different tune.

Keep in mind that there is absolutely, positively no empirical cause/effect justification in *any* of their claims. Photons are not affected by "dark energy' in the lab. They are not affected in the slightest by "space expansion" in the lab. They don't "bend around" exotic matter in the lab either. Inflation hasn't had any effect on any photon in any lab, not ever. Talk about "wanting to believe"! Their whole belief systems is based on *desire*, and healthy dose of simply *ignoring* the data that falsifies their beliefs!
 
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Michael

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Is it my fault that the Bullet Cluster continues to evidence exotic matter?

What "exotic matter" did you see in that bullet cluster data? Lensing studies tell you *absolutely nothing* about the nature of the mass that causes the lensing.

Is it my fault that the scientific community agrees that it is evidence?
Appeal to authority much? Did that agreement help them find anything at LUX or LHC?

Is it my fault that not a single researcher has published a paper demonstrating that the observations in the Bullet Cluster are due to plasma?
Why would anyone bother? 99+ percent of the known material universe is in the plasma state. What else would it be? Evidence?

But when the going gets rough, just claim that you are being persecuted by a world wide scientific conspiracy. Yeah. That works.
Persecuted? Ya, they've been persecuting me unmercifully while they falsified all their popular exotic matter claims for me over the last 18 months. They persecuted the heck out of me when they found all that million degree plasma around our galaxy in 2012 too. They persecuted me no end when they told me the botched the galaxy mass estimates by *underestimating* the stars in galaxies. Ya, I'm *so* persecuted! ;)

Oh, and the only place to find support for my claims is on non-peer reviewed websites run by non-professionals. Yeah, that works too.
That's just a bald faced lie as Peratt's published paper demonstrates, and Alfven's whole body of work demonstrates. Your side is the one handwaving away and random people on random websites, whereas we've been providing you with *peer reviewed* materials.
 
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Loudmouth

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What "exotic matter" did you see in that bullet cluster data? Lensing studies tell you *absolutely nothing* about the nature of the mass that causes the lensing.

The distribution of the matter does. There are two areas on each side. One contains luminous matter. The other contains dark matter. The luminous matter interacted with other luminous matter like normal matter does, but the dark matter did not interact. It moved right on through without any interaction. It is the differences in characteristics between the non-interacting dark matter and the normal, luminous matter that produced the two areas of mass.

Appeal to authority much? Did that agreement help them find anything at LUX or LHC?

I am appealing to the authorities on the matter. Why shouldn't I? Should I go with your uneducated, unsupported, and unpublished empty claims, or go with the educated, supported, and published claims of real scientists.

Hmm, let me think about that one . . .

Persecuted? Ya, they've been persecuting me unmercifully while they falsified all their popular exotic matter claims for me over the last 18 months. They persecuted the heck out of me when they found all that million degree plasma around our galaxy in 2012 too. They persecuted me no end when they told me the botched the galaxy mass estimates by *underestimating* the stars in galaxies. Ya, I'm *so* persecuted! ;)

That's just a bald faced lie as Peratt's published paper demonstrates, and Alfven's whole body of work demonstrates. Your side is the one handwaving away and random people on random websites, whereas we've been providing you with *peer reviewed* materials.

I suppose they are hiding those pictures of mountains on the Sun, right?

Do you ever look from the outside and see the state of the PU community? Ever?
 
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Michael

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The distribution of the matter does. There are two areas on each side. One contains luminous matter. The other contains dark matter.

Even the mainstream explanation *nailed it*. The matter that *passes on through* are the stars and that super/ultramassive black hole. The gas/plasma is the stuff that slams into each other and "glows brightly* as a result. So what?

The luminous matter interacted with other luminous matter like normal matter does,
Ya, those million degree plasma clouds *slammed* into each other alright.

but the dark matter did not interact.
The black holes, as well as the stars are space so far apart, they don't "hit" each other. Their momentum carries them on just as it always does. A collision with a little "wispy plasma cloud" isn't going to slow them down much.

It moved right on through without any interaction.
Yes, stars do that.

It is the differences in characteristics between the non-interacting dark matter and the normal, luminous matter that produced the two areas of mass.
Even the mainstream's explanation is "relatively" correct, and I already cited a reference for you. Apparently you however believe that stars are magical because they are spaced far apart. :)

I am appealing to the authorities on the matter. Why shouldn't I?
How about because they came up empty three times in a row at LHC, at LUX and again in those electron experiments? How *can* anyone actually falsify your beliefs again?

Should I go with your uneducated, unsupported, and unpublished empty claims, or go with the educated, supported, and published claims of real scientists.
You should go with the published claims of the Nobel prize winning physicists like Hannes Alfven, or his student Anthony Peratt. What "real scientists" have any published rebuttal to any of their work?

I suppose they are hiding those pictures of mountains on the Sun, right?
Nothing is being hidden from anyone in any SDO, SOHO or TRACE images. IRIS pretty much blew their entire atmospheric theory out of the water, and SDO already *destroyed* their convection claims. :)

Do you ever look from the outside and see the state of the PU community? Ever?
Your debate tactics are juvenile. You insert the obligatory ad hom in every post while running away from the Nobel Prize winning authors work with your tail between your legs. :)
 
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Subduction Zone

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Even the mainstream explanation *nailed it*. The matter that *passes on through* are the stars and that super/ultramassive black hole. The gas/plasma is the stuff that slams into each other and "glows brightly* as a result. So what?

No, you misunderstood the article. There is gravitational lensing by both the stars and something that does not glow. The plasma is no "glowing brightly".

Perhaps if you understood the evidence for dark matter better you could come up with a better argument against it.
 
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Justatruthseeker

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Dark Matter

The dark matter is undetectable by any electromagnetic radiation at our disposal - we can't see it in the visible range, can't detect it by radio waves at the low end of the spectrum or by the xrays at the high end of the spectrum. It appears not to interact by the electromagnetic force. The obvious question is then "How do we know it is there?" For some 80 years we have known the answer to that - it interacts by gravity and therby produces measurable results





Why aren't you on the cover of every single science magazine and on the payroll of all universities for giving lectures and thereby sharing what you apparantly know and no other physicist knows?
Why don't you have a nobel prize for solving a century old problem in physics?

It's hilarious... so, it's a conspiracy theory among astrophysicists ha?

LOL!!!

Get real, dude. Solving this problem would mean instant fame and glory for the one who does it. Do you actually really believe that nobody comes forward because they are emotionally attached to a status quo that lasted for 80+ years?

Really?

Excuse me, we didn't know it was there for 80 years, who you trying to fool with that spiel?

Colossal Gas Cloud Discovered Around Milky Way | Space.com

You want me to believe we have known it was there for 80 years when we just now have the technology in place to detect it? You need to get real dude.



And EM fields are the best bet going, since plasma responds strongly to EM fields, not gravity. It is your gravity only model that fails terribly, which is why you need to add 96% Fairie Dust to your mathematical models.

Plasma (physics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The presence of a non-negligible number of charge carriers makes the plasma electrically conductive so that it responds strongly to electromagnetic fields. Plasma, therefore, has properties quite unlike those of solids, liquids, or gases and is considered a distinct state of matter."

The problem is they want to treat it just like those solids, liquids and gasses it has properties quite unlike in their mathematical models and wonder why they need so much Fairie Dust. They treat it as nothing more than the states of matter they declare it behaves nothing like and then have to postulate additional Fairie Dust to make up for treating it for something it is not.

How do you dare try to justify that? How do you even attempt to justify that pseudoscience? You can't tell me plasma behaves nothing like the other three states of matter then treat it as nothing more than one of them and expect me to buy into that fairy tale psuedoscientific trash. Who you trying to fool with that double-talk? Yourself? You must be, because you sure ain't fooling anyone that knows anything about plasma.

We are just now learning how quickly these clouds can evolve.

Quasars illuminate swiftly swirling clouds around galaxies -- ScienceDaily

Contrary to all prior beliefs and in opposition to theory. Everything we observe is in opposition to gravity only theories. Quit treating plasma like nothing but a hot gas and you wont need so much trash gap fillers to make up for treating plasma like something it is not. Astronomers treat 99% of the universe (plasma) like that other 1% (solids, liquids and gasses) and then you wonder why they need 96% Fairie Dust to make up for that psuedoscientific trash. I'm not the one that relies on a theory requiring 96% imaginary Fairie Dust, just what we observe everywhere. Plasma.
 
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Riberra

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Bullet Cluster
Ha!The Bullet Cluster ...Interesting subject indeed!


[FONT=&quot]The dark matter hypothesis for the bullet cluster is contradicted by the cold dark matter [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ΛCDM[/FONT][FONT=&quot] model.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Mastropietro & Burkert (2008) have shown that an initial relative velocity of the two colliding clusters would need to be around 3000 km/s in order to explain the observed shock velocity, X-ray brightness ratio and morphology of the main and sub-cluster. However, Jounghun and Eiichiro (2010) have shown that such a high infall velocity is incompatible with the predictions of the cold dark matter [/FONT][FONT=&quot] model. The probability that such an event could occur is roughly one in 10 billion! The lower velocity simulations of, for example Milosavljevic et. al. (2007) and Springel& Farrar (2007), that could be compatible with [/FONT][FONT=&quot], do not reproduce the weak lensing data of the Bullet cluster. What this means is that it is pretty much impossible that the lensing effect seen in the Bullet cluster can be due to dark matter, based on the cold dark matter models Jounghun and Eiichiro .
[/FONT]
 
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TheBear

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I think ....

I know! I know! :wave:

Any scripture which even remotely resembles addressing the specific topic at hand, (and thank God for internet bible searches, right?), even if its so far out of context you'll need a snake oil salesman to make it work, you'll make it work. :thumbsup:
 
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AV1611VET

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I know! I know! :wave:

Any scripture which even remotely resembles addressing the specific topic at hand, (and thank God for internet bible searches, right?), even if its so far out of context you'll need a snake oil salesman to make it work, you'll make it work. :thumbsup:
Perhaps you could enlighten us then with your assessment of what these "chains of darkness" are?

Or do you just want to criticize those who actually have an interpretation?
 
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