Daniel 8:23 a difficult verse explained

[ebedmelech]

One of those definitions, in your word study source, is stands up. The two beasts in Daniel 8 are the goat and ram. And they are fighting, in the text. The goat overcomes the ram.

Here's what goat and rams do when they are fighting...

You have a problem. First... the four kings are NOT the goat or the ram...they come OUT of the goat. Here's Daniel 8:8
8Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.

This is where you make your first mistake the goats "horn was broken and four horns come in it's place. Do you see that? The focus changes to "the horns"...not the goat. That ought to tell you not to go too far with this "goat thing" you're doing.

The four horns in the text of the kjv are kingdoms, not four kings. In Daniel 11:8, it is not just about Antiochus as the king of the north, nor south as one Ptolemy - it is a series of kings out of the northern breakup kingdom and southern breakup kingdom.

Let's look at that in KJV...Daniel 8:8:
8Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Pretty hard not to understand the "four notable ones" are not horns...since horns are the subject.

And it is not even 4 kingdoms in Daniel 11, except to note that Alexander's kingdom broke up into 4 lesser kingdoms. Only two of those historic kingdoms are addressed, that of the north and south.

You're king of getting ridiculous now Doug...so I won't address this because kings preside over kingdoms. The text even calls them kings because they go to "the four winds of heaven"...those are the four directions of the compass. Now...what makes us know they're kings? Daniel 11:5:
5And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.

They are kings.

I am not saying that four kings are four beasts. I am saying that stands up in Daniel is all about the principles fighting, whether they are kingdoms or kings. Daniel 8 and Daniel 11, in large part is all about the fighting that takes places between the principles.

That's not correct though there is no fight...there's conspiracy by politics...read Daniel 11:6.

The king of fierce countenance is obviously a king, but not a kingdom. The 4 horns, on the other hand, are 4 kingdoms according to the text. And historically, the facts are that it was a series of kings from the north and a series of kings from the south - not just one king from each of those kingdoms.

You have a weird way of interpreting. Please demonstrate that from the text.

Because the bible is not full of conflicts. Everything fits together. In Daniel 8, the king of fierce countenance makes war on Jesus Princes of princes. He overcomes the holy people, referring to the Jews. In Daniel 11, the little horn and his kingdom are defeated when the kingdom of God is physical come to this earth, and given to the saints - who the little horn has overcome for a time, times, and half times.

No. More KJV error the KJV capitalizes the "Prince of Princes" but there's nothing that even infers this is Jesus...that is assumption and the main reason it cannot be...is the context. On what basis do you say the "prince of princes" is Jesus? Where are the descriptive phrases to make it so?

Yes, he is made to back down - does that sound like the king of fierce countenance in Daniel 8, who cannot be broken by human means?

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Isn't this what you typed (blue highlighting by me) ?

"You can say that and I'll just say I disagree. Scholars aren't in agreement on Daniel 11:36-44. Some agree it is Antiochus Epiphanes, others do not. I believe that is Antiochus Epiphanes. I also think 1 & 2 Maccabees make the case it is.

I see the ambiguity... but I think as you read it, it makes clear this is before Christ is even born, and I think Daniel 12 makes that point. "

I concluded that since you are saying that Daniel 12 is historic, and that Antiochus is the king in Daniel 11:36-44 - that the abomination of desolation is also historic, and refer to Antiochus.

Could you clarify?

We've done this before Doug search the archived post, and so will I...but read Daniel 11:29 and the ask yourself why do the Jews celebrate Hanukkah. Also have you ever read 1 & 2 Maccabees?

But we are in the end times, according to Daniel 12 (knowledge expansion and traveling to and fro) and Ezekiel 38 as well, and the understanding of the prophecy is unsealed.

As you read Matthew 24...think about the seals of Revelation 6.

Danie 11:1-3 is part of the equation, but so is the rest of Daniel 11, Daniel 7, Daniel 12, Revelation 13, Revelation 17, Revelation 12.


Doug

If you think so...especially if you're convinced you have the answer. I don't think you do...so I hope as we both keep studying (because I already admit I may be wrong about some of this), we both get to the truth of it.

 

[Douggg]

You have a problem. First... the four kings are NOT the goat or the ram...they come OUT of the goat. Here's Daniel 8:8
8Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven.

The four horns are not four kings, but four kingdoms. Alexander, a king, was the large horn. But the 4 horns are not just four kings.

Alexander died in 323 BC. Antiochus Epiphanes was born in 215 BC, came to power in 175 BC. There were (323-175) 148 years of others being the king of the north in Daniel 11. It is four kingdoms, not 4 kings.

This is where you make your first mistake the goats "horn was broken and four horns come in it's place. Do you see that? The focus changes to "the horns"...not the goat. That ought to tell you not to go too far with this "goat thing" you're doing.

I am showing you the meaning of stands up in Daniel 8, it does not apply to just coming out of - it has to do with fighting, making war. In Daniel 8:
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

....the king of fierce countenance is not coming out of anything or coming to power, he has been in power by the time he makes war on Jesus. Stand up means that he makes war. In Daniel 11, the king of the north (a series of them) makes war back and forth on the king of the south (a series of them) until it gets to Antiochus in Daniel 11:21, the vile person.

Let's look at that in KJV...Daniel 8:8:
8Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Pretty hard not to understand the "four notable ones" are not horns...since horns are the subject.

Horns is the subject, but the 4 horns are kingdoms not kings - as it says in Daniel 822 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Even in your NASB version it is not four kings, but four kingdoms.

(NASB) 8:22 The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.

It is not 4 kings, but 4 kingdoms - and in Daniel 11, it is multiple kings from the north and south - over a period of history, which the last one of those - each "called the king of the north" - is Antiochus IV, the vile person doesn't come into the picture until Daniel 11:21. Up to that point, the king of the north is someone else.

You're king of getting ridiculous now Doug...so I won't address this because kings preside over kingdoms. The text even calls them kings because they go to "the four winds of heaven"...those are the four directions of the compass.

You have no "in the text" calling the four horns kings. The little horn is a king, but not the four horns - which says in your NASB that the four horns are four kingdoms. The large horn on the goat is a king - Alexander. The little horn is a king.

You got to get those straight, eb. Between Alexander death in 323BC and Antiochus coming to power in 175BC, there were multiple kings of the north. Each in his time, called the king of the north, in Daniel 11, until it gets to Antiochus Epiphanes, king of the north, in Daniel 11:21.

The bottom line, that seems to have gotten lost in this discussion, is the kingdom of the transgressors in Daniel 8:23 is not that of the breakup kingdoms or kings, but the ten kings who will ally with the end times Antichrist, the king of fierce countenance who will make war (stand up) against Jesus, Prince of princes - King of kings (Revelation 19:16) - the Prince of peace.

Now...what makes us know they're kings? Daniel 11:5:
5And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.

They are kings.

But that is not Antiochus. There were more than 1 king in Daniel 11, as being the king of the north. Your NASB bible says four kingdoms as what the 4 horns represent.

Doug

 

[ebedmelech]

The four horns are not four kings, but four kingdoms. Alexander, a king, was the large horn. But the 4 horns are not just four kings.

Alexander died in 323 BC. Antiochus Epiphanes was born in 215 BC, came to power in 175 BC. There were (323-175) 148 years of others being the king of the north in Daniel 11. It is four kingdoms, not 4 kings.
I am showing you the meaning of stands up in Daniel 8, it does not apply to just coming out of - it has to do with fighting, making war. In Daniel 8:
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

....the king of fierce countenance is not coming out of anything or coming to power, he has been in power by the time he makes war on Jesus. Stand up means that he makes war. In Daniel 11, the king of the north (a series of them) makes war back and forth on the king of the south (a series of them) until it gets to Antiochus in Daniel 11:21, the vile person.



Horns is the subject, but the 4 horns are kingdoms not kings - as it says in Daniel 822 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Even in your NASB version it is not four kings, but four kingdoms.

(NASB) 8:22 The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power.

It is not 4 kings, but 4 kingdoms - and in Daniel 11, it is multiple kings from the north and south - over a period of history, which the last one of those - each "called the king of the north" - is Antiochus IV, the vile person doesn't come into the picture until Daniel 11:21. Up to that point, the king of the north is someone else.


You have no "in the text" calling the four horns kings. The little horn is a king, but not the four horns - which says in your NASB that the four horns are four kingdoms. The large horn on the goat is a king - Alexander. The little horn is a king.

You got to get those straight, eb. Between Alexander death in 323BC and Antiochus coming to power in 175BC, there were multiple kings of the north. Each in his time, called the king of the north, in Daniel 11, until it gets to Antiochus Epiphanes, king of the north, in Daniel 11:21.

The bottom line, that seems to have gotten lost in this discussion, is the kingdom of the transgressors in Daniel 8:23 is not that of the breakup kingdoms or kings, but the ten kings who will ally with the end times Antichrist, the king of fierce countenance who will make war (stand up) against Jesus, Prince of princes - King of kings (Revelation 19:16) - the Prince of peace.

But that is not Antiochus. There were more than 1 king in Daniel 11, as being the king of the north. Your NASB bible says four kingdoms as what the 4 horns represent.

Doug

Now you're doing worse Doug. Run with what you think brother...but think about how one can be a king...without a kingdom...

Maybe someone else can point it out to you...

 

[Douggg]

Now you're doing worse Doug. Run with what you think brother...but think about how one can be a king...without a kingdom...

Maybe someone else can point it out to you...

I have heard that bad logic a million times, mostly regarding the seven kings in Revelation 17. It is seven kings in Revelation 17, not seven kingdoms. In Revelation 17, it is 7 kings of the fourth empire.

You even have your logic twisted around, eb. You should be saying how can a kingdom not have a king, since it says kingdom directly in your NASB and the KJV. 4 kingdoms in your bible's text.

I am not saying that there is one king to each of the four breakup kingdoms. I am saying that there is one king at a time to each of the four breakup kingdoms.

The United States is one kingdom. But over time has had many kings (presidents). If I were to say that the king of the United States declared war on Japan - that would not be Barack Obama, but Roosevelt.

In Daniel 11, the four break up kingdoms - have had multiple kings, which for the kingdom of the north, there were multiple kings, who each were the king of the north during his particular reign. Anitiochus was one in a series of "king of the north" in Daniel 11. He doesn't enter the picture until Daniel 11:21.


Doug

 

[ebedmelech]

I have heard that bad logic a million times, mostly regarding the seven kings in Revelation 17. It is seven kings in Revelation 17, not seven kingdoms. In Revelation 17, it is 7 kings of the fourth empire.

You even have your logic twisted around, eb. You should be saying how can a kingdom not have a king, since it says kingdom directly in your NASB and the KJV. 4 kingdoms in your bible's text.

I am not saying that there is one king to each of the four breakup kingdoms. I am saying that there is one king at a time to each of the four breakup kingdoms.

The United States is one kingdom. But over time has had many kings (presidents). If I were to say that the king of the United States declared war on Japan - that would not be Barack Obama, but Roosevelt.

In Daniel 11, the four break up kingdoms - have had multiple kings, which for the kingdom of the north, there were multiple kings, who each were the king of the north during his particualr reign. Anitiochus was one in a series of "king of the north" in Daniel 11. He doesn't enter the picture until Daniel 11:21.


Doug

Real quick...here. I usually don't consult commentaries until I've read to see if I'm getting things right. Sometimes commentaries disagree. But her'es a few on "stand up":

Scofield (a futurist...he even gets this right):
8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. king of fierce countenance
i.e. Antiochus Epiphanes who arose out of Syria, one of the "four kingdoms," B.C. 170.


Coffman's Commentary:
Verse 20
"The ram which thou sawest, that had the two horns, they are the kings of Media and of Persia. And the rough he-goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. And as for that which was broken, in the place whereof four stood up, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not with his power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper and do his pleasure; and he shall destroy the mighty ones and the holy people. And through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself mightily in his heart, and in their security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
"But not in his own power ..." (Daniel 8:24). Apparently God gave this evil man the power to bring punishment upon Israel. Also, the intervention of God is behind the statement that, "He shall be broken without hand ..." (Daniel 8:25). He is said to have died of madness. "The defeat of Antiochus by Judas Maccabaeus might have been overcome by that evil power if he had had the money to pay his troops. Not having it, he attempted to plunder the pagan temple of Artemis at Elymais. He utterly failed, and that caused his death. Historians of those times viewed his death as caused by madness inflicted by a Divine hand."[16]
"When the transgressors are come to the full ..." (Daniel 8:23). This is a reference to the transgressions of Israel. It was the climax of such sins that led to God's permission for such an evil power as Antiochus to rise up.


Clarke's Commentary:
When the transgressors are come to the full - When the utmost degradation has taken place, by the buying and selling of the high priesthood; for Onias was ejected for a sum of money, to make room for wicked Jason; and Jason again was supplanted for a greater sum by a worse man, if possible, than himself, Menelaus; and the golden vessels of the temple were sold to pay for this sacrilegious purchase. Thus transgressions were come to the full, before the Romans had commission to destroy Jerusalem and its temple, etc.
A king of fierce countenance - The Roman government, as before; for king is often taken for kingdom or empire.
Understanding dark sentences - Very learned and skillful in all things relating to government and its intrigues. The learning of Rome is proverbial to the present time.


Critical Commentary On The Whole Bible:

23. transgressors are come to the full--This does not hold good of the times of Antiochus, but of the closing times of the Christian era. Compare Luke 18:8 , and 2 Timothy 3:1-9 , as to the wickedness of the world in general just before Christ's second coming. Israel's guilt, too, shall then be at the full, when they who rejected Christ shall receive Antichrist; fulfilling Jesus words, "I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not; if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive" (compare Genesis 15:16 , Matthew 23:32 , 1 Thessalonians 2:16 ).
of fierce countenance--( Deuteronomy 28:50 ); one who will spare neither old nor young.
understanding dark sentences--rather, "artifices" [GESENIUS]. Antiochus made himself master of Egypt and Jerusalem successively by craft (I Maccabees 1:30, &c.; II Maccabees 5:24, &c.).

None of them agree with you Doug...and you're certainly free to think what you want... but I think you're wrong.

 

[Douggg]

Real quick...here. I usually don't consult commentaries until I've read to see if I'm getting things right. Sometimes commentaries disagree. But her'es a few on "stand up":

Scofield (a futurist...he even gets this right):
8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. king of fierce countenance
i.e. Antiochus Epiphanes who arose out of Syria, one of the "four kingdoms," B.C. 170.


Coffman's Commentary:
Verse 20
"The ram which thou sawest, that had the two horns, they are the kings of Media and of Persia. And the rough he-goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. And as for that which was broken, in the place whereof four stood up, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not with his power. And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper and do his pleasure; and he shall destroy the mighty ones and the holy people. And through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself mightily in his heart, and in their security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand."
"But not in his own power ..." (Daniel 8:24). Apparently God gave this evil man the power to bring punishment upon Israel. Also, the intervention of God is behind the statement that, "He shall be broken without hand ..." (Daniel 8:25). He is said to have died of madness. "The defeat of Antiochus by Judas Maccabaeus might have been overcome by that evil power if he had had the money to pay his troops. Not having it, he attempted to plunder the pagan temple of Artemis at Elymais. He utterly failed, and that caused his death. Historians of those times viewed his death as caused by madness inflicted by a Divine hand."[16]
"When the transgressors are come to the full ..." (Daniel 8:23). This is a reference to the transgressions of Israel. It was the climax of such sins that led to God's permission for such an evil power as Antiochus to rise up.


Clarke's Commentary:
When the transgressors are come to the full - When the utmost degradation has taken place, by the buying and selling of the high priesthood; for Onias was ejected for a sum of money, to make room for wicked Jason; and Jason again was supplanted for a greater sum by a worse man, if possible, than himself, Menelaus; and the golden vessels of the temple were sold to pay for this sacrilegious purchase. Thus transgressions were come to the full, before the Romans had commission to destroy Jerusalem and its temple, etc.
A king of fierce countenance - The Roman government, as before; for king is often taken for kingdom or empire.
Understanding dark sentences - Very learned and skillful in all things relating to government and its intrigues. The learning of Rome is proverbial to the present time.


Critical Commentary On The Whole Bible:

23. transgressors are come to the full--This does not hold good of the times of Antiochus, but of the closing times of the Christian era. Compare Luke 18:8 , and 2 Timothy 3:1-9 , as to the wickedness of the world in general just before Christ's second coming. Israel's guilt, too, shall then be at the full, when they who rejected Christ shall receive Antichrist; fulfilling Jesus words, "I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not; if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive" (compare Genesis 15:16 , Matthew 23:32 , 1 Thessalonians 2:16 ).
of fierce countenance--( Deuteronomy 28:50 ); one who will spare neither old nor young.
understanding dark sentences--rather, "artifices" [GESENIUS]. Antiochus made himself master of Egypt and Jerusalem successively by craft (I Maccabees 1:30, &c.; II Maccabees 5:24, &c.).

None of them agree with you Doug...and you're certainly free to think what you want... but I think you're wrong.

Hi eb, not only with those 4 commentators, but I haven't heard a single commentator say that the transgressors are the ten kings that align themselves with the Antichrist. But am I wrong? I shared with you that I wrestled with that verse for 40 years.

They are all wrong because they are connecting the transgressors to the four breakup kingdoms - but "their" kingdom in Daniel 8:23, is a singular kingdom of the transgressors. In the latter time of that kingdom. Not of the four breakup kingdoms.

Scofield died in 1921, so he did not live in the time of the end when the book is unsealed to understanding.

Coffman - "When the transgressors are come to the full ..." (Daniel 8:23). This is a reference to the transgressions of Israel.

That is just crazy. The transgressions are not the transgressions of Israel.

It says what the transgressions are in the text. Which in Daniel 8:12 is the stopping of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation -by the little horn.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Critical Commentary On The Whole Bible: "23. transgressors are come to the full--This does not hold good of the times of Antiochus, but of the closing times of the Christian era."

Well they are getting closer, but still haven't made the connection of the transgressors, their kingdom, being that kingdom of the ten kings that align themselves with the Antichrist.

And this doesn't make sense, as they discount the time of Antiochus (above quote) and turn around then say....

"understanding dark sentences--rather, "artifices" [GESENIUS]. Antiochus made himself master of Egypt and Jerusalem successively by craft (I Maccabees 1:30, &c.; II Maccabees 5:24, &c.)."

....implying that the king of fierce countenance was Antiochus. Well, which is it, I would ask them, the closing times of the Christian era, or Antiochus's time?

It doesn't hurt to research commentaries and the subject matter on the internet. I do that too, eb. You might find a nugget or two of really good information in the process.


Doug

 

[ebedmelech]

Hi eb, not only with those 4 commentators, but I haven't heard a single commentator say that the transgressors are the ten kings that align themselves with the Antichrist. But am I wrong? I shared with you that I wrestled with that verse for 40 years.

They are all wrong because they are connecting the transgressors to the four breakup kingdoms - but "their" kingdom in Daniel 8:23, is a singular kingdom of the transgressors. In the latter time of that kingdom. Not of the four breakup kingdoms.

Scofield died in 1921, so he did not live in the time of the end when the book is unsealed to understanding.

Coffman - "When the transgressors are come to the full ..." (Daniel 8:23). This is a reference to the transgressions of Israel.

That is just crazy. The transgressions are not the transgressions of Israel.

It says what the transgressions are in the text. Which in Daniel 8:12 is the stopping of the daily sacrifice and transgression of desolation -by the little horn.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Critical Commentary On The Whole Bible: "23. transgressors are come to the full--This does not hold good of the times of Antiochus, but of the closing times of the Christian era."

Well they are getting closer, but still haven't made the connection of the transgressors, their kingdom, being that kingdom of the ten kings that align themselves with the Antichrist.

And this doesn't make sense, as they discount the time of Antiochus (above quote) and turn around then say....

"understanding dark sentences--rather, "artifices" [GESENIUS]. Antiochus made himself master of Egypt and Jerusalem successively by craft (I Maccabees 1:30, &c.; II Maccabees 5:24, &c.)."

....implying that the king of fierce countenance was Antiochus. Well, which is it, I would ask them, the closing times of the Christian era, or Antiochus's time?

It doesn't hurt to research commentaries and the subject matter on the internet. I do that too, eb. You might find a nugget or two of really good information in the process.


Doug

Ok Doug...have it your way. I'll give you credit for persistence... Obviously you have no clue of what Antiochus did.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Douggg]

The little horn comes out of the Greek smaller kingdom area.

That's one of the parts that makes Daniel 8 difficult. The little horn comes from one of those four breakup kingdoms when he waxes strong to the south and east toward Israel. It is telling the location of where he is coming from when he waxes great toward Israel.

9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

This horn comes out an extension type from one of the four horns.

You have to look at what he is doing in that verse. And in verse 23, he is standing up, getting reading for battle.

place a horn ^
<<<<<goat head>>>>-----little horn for the latter end of the empire
place the south horn

I need an interpreter for the arrows - vinsight4u . What are you trying to convey?

The little horn was seen to come out of the horn that was for the eastern part of the four kingdoms empire.

Not from the eastern breakup kingdom - that would put him the wrong position to wax strong toward Israel as he is getting ready for battle.

four stand up out of that nation
in the latter time of their kingdom

Four horns (Kingdoms) stand up out of Alexander's kingdom.

The little horn king of fierce countenance stands up out of the kingdom of the transgressors. The transgressors are the ten kings of the fourth empire in Daniel 7 that will align themselves with the Antichrist.

And out of them came

forth a little horn.

Go to Daniel and you will read about that little horn come up among the ten kings of the 4th kingdom, the Roman Empire, not the Greek Empire, nor any of the 4 breakup empires.

Doug

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Douggg]

Daniel 11 is not history any futher than about verse 13b.

Verse 13 is where it brings in army types - one for long ago and one for the end days.

It is not for the end times in verse 13. There is no end times in verse 13.

kjv Daniel 11:13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.

a multitude ..............after certain years.............a great army

It is just saying that the king of the north is bringing a bigger army than before.

The great army is for the end days.

"after certain years" just means that some years passed between king of the north big army, which the king of the south destroyed, and then years latter, the king of the north in verse 13 re-attacks an even bigger army.

10 But his sons shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces: and one shall certainly come, and overflow, and pass through: then shall he return, and be stirred up, even to his fortress.
11 And the king of the south shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, even with the king of the north: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand.
12 And when he hath taken away the multitude, his heart shall be lifted up; and he shall cast down many ten thousands: but he shall not be strengthened by it.
13 For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.
14 And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.

Daniel 11:36 the king
///This is not a new king in the prophecy.
This king has been going on with his role ever since verse 21.

The king in verse 21 is many years before the end times. Over 2000 years.

The vile person (Antiochus) doesn't appear until verse 21. The verses before then are historic actions between the Ptolomey's and the Seleucid's

Between verse about the vlle person in verse 21 and the king in verse 36 is many days to the end times.

Doug

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Douggg]

Hi Douggg,


Daniel is telling us what he sees in verse 9's time.

"And out of one of them..."

So he saw four horns take the place of the great broken horn, then he saw a little horn grow out from one of the four horns. I was trying to show how the goat head had four horns - so picture that - then bring a horn from one of those four horns - as an extension.

So one horn of the four horns on the goat head got bigger in length than the others, because the little horn came out it.

the >>> were to show the regular four horns
then >>>==== shows something grew out from one of those

The little horn can only come from the area that belonged to the goat.
Grecia

Okay, I understand what you were conveying now. Grecia - I am assuming you mean Greece (Macedonia) - is west, not east. What I am saying is that the 4 breakup kingdoms of Alexander's kingdom are historic. But the king of fierce countnence in Daniel 8:23 is the end times Antichrist because he stands up against Jesus the Prince of princes.

Obviously, the kingdoms of the Ptolomey's, Seluecids, those two dynasty's are gone. The other two are lesser than they, and were not included in the back and forth battles in Daniel 11, and they were also fighting over who controls Jerusalem and Israel.

So the issue becomes, that western most breakup kingdom, which was under Cassandra initially, keep in mind that those kingdoms spanned hundreds of years, so it was more than just him - what does that kingdom have to do with the end times little horn king of fierce countenance Antichrist? It is the location from where he will waxes strong from in coming to Israel.

And in conjunction with him also being the Prince who shall come, he will be coming with his army from that location, Greece, under the banner of peace to stop the Gog/Magog attack on Israel. That's why the Jews will think that he is their king messiah.

His army will be that of the EU, and maybe NATO, but the ten kings for sure, that he will assemble, stage for battle, in Greece as the Gog/Magog attack force builds.

Doug

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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