Daniel 11

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 8:

And you must do this because there will be believing mortal survivors of the battle of Armageddon who will be separated out from the other mortal survivors ....

Matthew 25:31 doesn't mean that Matthew 25:32-46 (just as 2 Peter 3:10a doesn't mean that 2 Peter 3:10b) will happen immediately at Jesus' 2nd coming, only that it will happen sometime subsequent to his 2nd coming, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15).

Matthew 25:32-46 refers to the "nations" being judged by their works at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:12-13), whereas at the 2nd coming, Jesus will judge only those in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30). Also, Matthew 25:41,46 refers to the unsaved being sent (at the time of Matthew 25:41,46) into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire and brimstone at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:15), whereas at the 2nd coming, only the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his False Prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20). The saved "sheep" at the sheep/goat judgment would include those who became believers during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). Matthew 25:34 refers to obedient believers inheriting the kingdom of the Father on the new earth in New Jerusalem, the Father's house (Revelation 21:1-7, John 14:2).

Time Watcher said in post 8:

If your story of a post tribulation "rapture" was true [which it is not] .... there would be no believing mortals left to populate the kingdom ....

Regarding who will populate the millennium, in the sense of having offspring during the millennium, it will be populated by the unsaved people "left" alive in their mortal bodies at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:39b-40, Zechariah 14:16-19). It could also be populated by the elect Jews who will get saved at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:25-29, Zechariah 12:10-14). For they could enter the millennium (Zechariah 14:5-21) while still in their mortal bodies. For the resurrection/changing of the saved into immortal bodies at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) could be for only those who had become saved before the 2nd coming.

Time Watcher said in post 8:

Matthew 24:29-31 and 25:31-46 have no "resurrections" for any of the subjects involved ....

Matthew 24:29-31 refers to the same, 2nd coming of Jesus as Revelation 19:7 to 20:6. And the 2nd-coming resurrected church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16) is mentioned in Revelation 20:4-6, just as the 2nd-coming married church is mentioned in Revelation 19:7.

Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that only those people in the church who will be beheaded by the Antichrist will be resurrected in the first resurrection and reign with Jesus during the millennium. For the first resurrection will be the bodily resurrection of the entire church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). And every obedient person in the church (of all times) will reign on the earth with Jesus during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10).

Also, Revelation 20:4-6 doesn't mean that the first resurrection will happen sometime after Revelation 19:7 to 20:3. For just as the gathering together (rapture) of the church at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) will happen right before Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, so will the first resurrection. For the resurrection of the church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52) will immediately precede the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Revelation 20:4-6 simply means that the obedient part of the church (of all times), which by that time will have already been resurrected, gathered together, and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7), will then live and reign with him on the earth during the millennium. In Revelation 20:4, the original Greek word (zao, G2198) translated as "and they lived" means just that. It doesn't mean "and they resurrected" at the time of Revelation 20:4-6. After those resurrected in the first resurrection have lived through the millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), everyone else who has ever died will be resurrected in a 2nd resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Time Watcher said in post 8:

So as I watch you post I see your ambition included in all that you say which is directed to the false Pentecostal MSOG latter rain corruptions of Revelation 12

The "woman " is the nation of Israel, the "manchild" is the Lord, and the devil is the devil in Revelation 12

Note that what has been presented hasn't been based on Pentecostal, MSOG, or latter rain teachings (which have never even been looked at), but on the Bible itself.

In Revelation 12, the "woman" represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She's clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Time Watcher said in post 8:

The "woman " is the nation of Israel, the "manchild" is the Lord, and the devil is the devil in Revelation 12

In Revelation 12:5, the "man child" isn't Jesus, for Revelation 12:5 isn't about past things, but is part of the "things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1b). Revelation chapters 11-14 show from 4 different angles what will happen right before the start and during the same future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 14:9-13), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Regarding Revelation 12:5 saying "who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron": Along with Jesus (Revelation 19:15, Psalms 2:9), the whole obedient church will rule the nations with a rod of iron (Revelation 2:26-29) on the earth (Revelation 5:10) during the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6). Before the millennium, during the tribulation, at its midpoint, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up bodily to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus) as the "man child" (Revelation 12:5-6), and as the firstfruits of the church (Revelation 14:4) in the sense of its best part (cf. Numbers 18:12).

 

[Time Watcher]

"Regarding who will populate the millennium, in the sense of having offspring during the millennium, it will be populated by the unsaved people "left" alive in their mortal bodies at Jesus' 2nd coming"


This is where your post-tribulation/replacement theology story crashes and burns

Only believing surviving mortals will enter the kingdom ..... 1/3 of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Zechariah 13:8-9; Matthew 24:29-31; Romans 11:25-36], and those of the believing Gentiles of the nations [Matthew 25:31-46] who favored the Lord's brethren [kin] of Israel during the tribulation

The 2/3 of Israel will be killed in unbelief during the tribulation and Lord will reject the unbelieving goats of the Gentile nations who did not serve Israel [His brethren] during the tribulation [the time of Jacob's trouble]

And I also have to warn you that your replacement theology is going to cause problems for you whether you enter the tribulation, or not

Your continued insistence that you are not teaching the MSOG many membered "manchild" is a cover, because you are

You replace Israel in tribulation with your "church" and this requires your post-tribulation thinking .... neither of which is true

 

[Bible2]

Time Watcher said in post 22:

This is where your post-tribulation/replacement theology story crashes and burns

Regarding "replacement theology", note that even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Time Watcher said in post 22:

This is where your post-tribulation/replacement theology story crashes and burns

Regarding "post-tribulation", note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Time Watcher said in post 22:

Only believing surviving mortals will enter the kingdom ..... 1/3 of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Zechariah 13:8-9; Matthew 24:29-31; Romans 11:25-36], and those of the believing Gentiles of the nations [Matthew 25:31-46] who favored the Lord's brethren [kin] of Israel during the tribulation

Note that none of those passages says or requires that only believing surviving mortals will enter the millennial kingdom.

Also, Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 show what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

Time Watcher said in post 22:

Only believing surviving mortals will enter the kingdom ..... 1/3 of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Zechariah 13:8-9; Matthew 24:29-31; Romans 11:25-36], and those of the believing Gentiles of the nations [Matthew 25:31-46] who favored the Lord's brethren [kin] of Israel during the tribulation

Regarding Romans 11:25-36, in Romans 11:25 the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It's the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25), in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the tribulation, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18) during the 2nd half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapter 6 to 18 and Matthew 24.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Time Watcher said in post 22:

Only believing surviving mortals will enter the kingdom ..... 1/3 of Israel [Isaiah 11; 27:13; Zechariah 13:8-9; Matthew 24:29-31; Romans 11:25-36], and those of the believing Gentiles of the nations [Matthew 25:31-46] who favored the Lord's brethren [kin] of Israel during the tribulation

Regarding Matthew 25:31-46, see the first section of post 21.

Time Watcher said in post 22:

The 2/3 of Israel will be killed in unbelief during the tribulation and Lord will reject the unbelieving goats of the Gentile nations who did not serve Israel [His brethren] during the tribulation [the time of Jacob's trouble]

Regarding "the tribulation [the time of Jacob's trouble]", note that the time of Jacob's trouble which he will be saved out of (Jeremiah 30:7) won't be the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, but only the final pillaging of the Jews in Jerusalem at the very end of the tribulation, right before Jesus returns and saves them (Zechariah 14:2-5). The church, including Gentile believers (Revelation 7:9,14), will be in the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

Time Watcher said in post 22:

Your continued insistence that you are not teaching the MSOG many membered "manchild" is a cover, because you are

Actually, that's not the case, for the reasons given in the last section of post 20.

 

[Time Watcher]

"Actually, that's not the case"


You keep telling this .... but if anyone knows the latter rain MSOG teaching it is obvious and it was pointed out to you the reason that your post-tribulation teaching crashes and burns

.... but your response did not address this fact at all .... why not?

 

[vinsight4u]

/

 

[Anto9us]

To me ch 11 possibly involves BOTH Antiochus IV and a future King no one knows of - and some people say verse 36 is where the "future little horn" starts being talked about - and some say that doesn't happen til verse 40

some say there are two different "little horns" in Daniel - one past, one final days end times

some make a big deal out of "Rome as the fourth kingdom" and in order for that to be, it would be necessary to COMBINE Medes and Persians into ONE EMPIRE - I don't see them as one empire - there are TWO LINES OF KINGS!

they were two peoples, but there is an image in Daniel where the two are ONE RAM with TWO Horns - and there are references to "the customs of the Medes and the Persians" regarding once a law was signed by a King, it could not be changed - still doesn't mean they are one empire.

Why is Daniel so hard to interpret?

Why does there have to be a "gap" or "parentheses" in the 70 weeks?

Why is it posited that there are "different little horns"?

or that at the very least, that there is a very EXACT NARRATIVE of the history of Antiochus IV which ABRUPTLY BREAKS OFF AND THE NEXT VERSE refers to someone thousands of years in the future?

Aren't all of these theories a bit FAR-FETCHED?

GAP of 2 thousand years...

end times Little Horn as early as ch 7

but Antiochus IV doing some of the same things almost two centuries before Christ?

To me it is POSSIBLE, because I do believe in "multiple fulfillments", and I do NOT see Antiochus IV as doing EVERYTHING attributed to the Little Horn -- but I surely see the 70 AD destruction as a fulfillment of Abomination of Desolation - and I think it is the one Jesus warned of in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 (though Luke didn't use that term but mentioned "when you see Jerusalem surrounded with armies."

But I am no longer CONVINCED by ANY comprehensive eschatological scheme and see Daniel as extremely perplexing, the only thing for sure I see is that the Bible does NOT SAY Messiah was cut off "in the midst of a week" and

that Messiah is NOT the one causing sacrifice and oblation to cease, but rather a bad prince is.

The antecedent of the pronoun "he" in "he shall cause sacrifice and oblation to cease in the midst of the week" is "prince that shall come" - whether that be Titus already happened, or some future prince that shall come.

That is HOW LANGUAGE WORKS regarding pronouns and antecedent nouns, and ch 11's version of causing sacrifice to cease confirms that it is a "bad prince" - not Jesus

it's Titus - and/or the AntiChrist

but it is NOT JESUS coming in the middle of a 7 year trib just to say

"Oh, I'm here to stop Temple sacrifices, then I'm gone again - see ya in 3 1/2 more years"

think about it

nor do I think He will sit on his throne in Heaven and say "OK, time for me to WILL the sacrifices to STOP 3 1/2 years before I return to earth"

that's silly

 

[Time Watcher]

You just keep thinking about how you are looking at the silence of the prophets between the 69th week past and the 70th week to come

You will find that Daniel's visions related to time lapse are quite simple to understand .... there is just nothing recorded of events upon the earth between

And there is a reason

Jesus came to rule over Israel at His first advent, but was rejected

This changed to direction of the time line

He set Israel aside and offered His salvation to the nations of the Gentiles, and this direction is still on going today .... He has delayed and is waiting for the adding of the same to His ecclesia

Every prophetic vision including His own discourse related to the time of silence and resumption and the ending of the balance reflects this same breach in the time line and you can find it in all of them if you will look [I can show you if you like

Why such a long period of silence?

Because He has expanded His allowance for a greater number of Gentiles to His ecclesia [be glad that He has done this .... you may have never existed]

The day is coming when the breach of silence will end .... He will abruptly turn the course again and cause the balance of the visions to play out exactly as they are written

There is nothing complex about this view .... and it is true

The problem and the confusion .... men will not leave His schedule alone and have attempted to insert human history into the breach .... nothing is there of events upon the earth just after His "cutting off" [the ending of the 69th week]

This inserting behavior has led to the confusion and it is always related to various religious movements large and small of exclusive claims to know the truth and to build proprietary holdings of position for the purpose of the ambitions of men .... using the "church" for nefarious purposes

All sorts and varieties of organized movements have and do attempt to insert themselves into the void ..... even to say that they have replaced Israel and that the Lord is no longer keeping His covenant with His national people

Here is where grave error has cause the professing "church" to move wildly off course and to become an accident looking for a place to happen

The Lord is suddenly going to intervene with no warning or signs and bring His judgment upon a world of unbelief including the apostate condition of the "church" described here [Revelation 3:15-22] .... then the things "hereafter" will roll [Revelation 1:19; 4:1]

He could quickly intervene before this day is over ... in a flash, in the moment of the twinkling of an eye

Make certain that you are ready and heaven bound

 

[Bible2]

vinsight4u said in post 25:

I see it as the great army with much riches is about Iraq's military.

That could be right.

For the Antichrist may not appear on the world stage until after the horrible future war of Revelation 6:4-8 and Daniel 11:15-17 has resulted in the total defeat and occupation of Israel, and Egypt, and the death of 1/4 of the world. It could be this war which will help open the way for the Antichrist to arise on the world stage as a great man of peace and antitypically fulfill the vile person of Daniel 11:21-45.

And one way this war could happen is the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, the Mossad, and possibly also (Sunni Arab) Saudi Intelligence, to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For all 3 of these intelligence agencies would love for Iraq to attack their common mortal foe Iran, and the Iraqi Baathists could agree to do this, for they see non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a great miracle-working false Messiah: cf. Matthew 24:24) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they're doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For Egypt is ruled by the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army, which the Baathists could see as being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from 3 directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons. This war could be blamed not only on the "religious fundamentalism" of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, i.e. the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he's given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by an ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22). They could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it's not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm.

Then, instead of executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "world peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit (at least one time) in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6). The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign are over, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns, he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[precepts]

Alexander the Great [Daniel 11:3-4]

The significant kings of the ancient northern Seleucid dynasty [north of Israel] .... and the coming little horn at the end of this present age

Antiochus the Great [11:6-19]

Philopator [11:20] [raiser of taxes]

Antiochus IV [11:21-35] [Antiochus murdered Philopator]

Antiochus IV did some of the things that the future little horn will do, but not all


Antiochus IV– desecrated Israel when forced by Rome to return from excursion against Egypt

Antiochus IV did not conquer Egypt and he died in Persia while on a military campaign

Antiochus IV did not consolidate the entire Middle Eastern region with 10 other kings


The coming little horn of Daniel 11:36 was not and will not be Antiochus IV

This little horn has not yet appeared, but will do so at “the time appointed”

He is the subject of [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince that shall come]; 12:7]

The break in the vision in chapter 11 is between verse 11:35 and 11:36

This northern king is the one that Abaddon will possess and control at the time of the end [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-17]

Abaddon will do Satan’s [gog’s] bidding on the earth during the coming tribulation period [Ezekiel 38:39]

… but he will come to his ending at Armageddon [Revelation 19:20]

And the human little horn and his human followers [the Muslims of the Middle East] will be destroyed by the Lord in the battle [Revelation 19:21]

And Satan will be captured and sent to the abyss for 1000 years

You've listed these as facts without their proofs. Why? And was Antiochus the Great the first Seleucid King?

 

[Bible2]

vinsight4u said in post 32:

Ezekiel 28 refers to the prince of Tyre and secrets.

If Ezekiel 28:2 has application to future events, because of its similarity to the never-fulfilled 2 Thessalonians 2:4, then the prince of Tyre could be the future human ruler commonly called the Antichrist (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:5-18). If that's the case, then the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:12) could be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon), who will empower the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). Lucifer, before his fall and man's fall, could have been placed as a covering cherub over Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-15).

There's a curious correlation between the prince and the king of Tyre on the one hand (Ezekiel 28), and the use of the name Hiram in the mystical teachings of a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation. For Hiram was the name of the human king of Tyre at the time of the building of King Solomon's temple (1 Kings 5). Also, Hiram was the name of another person from Tyre, the human master workman who helped Solomon build the temple (1 Kings 7:13-14). If the king and the prince of Tyre addressed in Ezekiel 28 are Lucifer and the Antichrist, then the name Hiram would be a perfect code name (not the actual name) for both of them, a name by which their identity within the Gnostic Luciferian teachings of the worldwide secret society could be kept secret from all but its highest-level initiates. Just as the human workman named Hiram built a temple to God in which all the world was to worship (1 Kings 8:41-43), so the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Revelation 13:4), when the Antichrist gains power over the earth (Revelation 13:7).

The Antichrist's future Luciferian rule over the earth could be pictured by the most common, publicly known symbol for the worldwide secret society, in which a drafting/measuring compass, an instrument shaped like the two legs of an "A" (as in "Antichrist"), is sometimes shown standing on top of a globe of the earth. And beneath, as in support of the "A" is a drafting/measuring square, an instrument shaped like an "L" (as in "Lucifer"). Also, found within the "L" is the letter "G", which could ultimately stand for the (false) "Gnosis" (knowledge) of Gnosticism (cf. the original Greek of 1 Timothy 6:20b), which the secret society (mistakenly) thinks can be found in Lucifer. The Antichrist will teach the ancient Gnostic lie that YHWH God is evil (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), and the ancient Gnostic lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will also deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

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Ultimately, the power behind the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9), just as the ultimate controllers of the unsaved world have always been (and are still currently) Lucifer and his fallen angels (Ephesians 6:12, Ephesians 2:2-3). And there could also be a secret cabal of human world leaders in big business, finance, intelligence agencies, federal law enforcement, politics, the media/entertainment, the military, and religion, who know this fact, and so have secretly become worshippers of Lucifer in order to obtain from him all of the world's power, wealth, and pleasures that they can (cf. Matthew 4:9).

These Luciferians could have been working secretly together for some time (including through a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation) to prepare the way politically, economically, culturally, militarily, and religiously for a single Luciferian human world leader (the Antichrist) to take hegemony over the whole earth (Revelation 13:7b) and, along with his miracle-working False Prophet, to deceive the world into the open worship of Lucifer and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 19:20). God will let them succeed in this, but for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5b, Daniel 12:11-12), before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3). Jesus will then set up his own, 1,000-year, physical kingdom on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

vinsight4u said in post 32:

Is Nebuchadnezzar the coming little horn?
I can make a great case for it, yet he may be another former Babylonian king.

Rev. 17 shows the beast as scarlet.

The Babylonians used scarlet for their kings.

The 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[ebedmelech]

the thing was true - Daniel 10

But I will shew thee the truth..." Daniel 10

"Now I am come...what shall befall thy people...latter days..."


"robbers of thy people" a Daniel 11:14 part


Here is the time when the latter days is starting to come upon thy people as mentioned in chapter 10.

The holy being is letting Daniel see what is to come upon his people in the latter days. After this, he will be off to fight with the prince of Persia.

Daniel 10:14
"Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days..."

The holy being and Daniel talk about other things - and then comes chapter 11.

So when does Daniel hear about the details that will befall his people in the latter days time? Daniel gets to find out those details at verse 14.

11:14
"...thy people...."

This is the only place thy people gets mentioned in all of the verses since chapter 10:14. When the holy being starts to reveal things as to Daniel's = thy people - we are hearing things of the latter days to befall Israel.

The problem with your whole reasoning here is you're mixing "apples and oranges".
Daniel 10:1:
In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a message was revealed to Daniel,

Daniel 11:1:
“In the first year of Darius the Mede, I arose to be an encouragement and a protection for him.

You're all over the place trying to understand this...so your post is incoherent because you don't even have a complete thought as to what you're saying or trying to say.

What I will say is Daniel 12 is where Daniel is told what will befall Israel in the latter days. It is partially revealed to Daniel because Daniel is told to seal the the vision. Daniel 12:8, 9:
8 As for me, I heard but could not understand; so I said, “My lord, what will be the outcome of these events?”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.

Daniel is not allowed to know, and is told to seal it. That sealed book is opened in Revelation 5 and 6..by the Lord Himself.