Dangers of Liberal Theology in the Church

[rturner76]

When it comes to our government applying rules for us to live and die by, I just pray for the rule of law made by We the People. Democracy, majority rules, no taxation without representation. Guarantee my rights as a citizen and I'll figure out my own religon with my family.

 

[GadFly]

Look folks, the choice is between following the God of the Constitution or no God.There is no other choice allowed. You are free to define God in your own mind. Therre are few, if any, church that allows that freedom. Humanism has no written autthoriity in the Constition to determine human rights or challenge self evident truth. We the people hold these truths to be self evident. These are the rights we have but there is no right to vote on self evident truth. Majority rule is some times un-Consitutional.

 

[rturner76]

That's the choice you see for your life. So you make your decisions based on that. You do not get to decide how others must view their *SELF* evident rights. The truth is evident in and of itself. You don't need to teach or preach God or Humanism to teach self evident truth. Mostly because of what it is SELF EVIDENT. Not God evident, or Humanism evident. Self evident. It's not even Gadfly evident.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Look folks, the choice is between following the God of the Constitution or no God.There is no other choice allowed. You are free to define God in your own mind. Therre are few, if any, church that allows that freedom. Humanism has no written autthoriity in the Constition to determine human rights or challenge self evident truth. We the people hold these truths to be self evident. These are the rights we have but there is no right to vote on self evident truth. Majority rule is some times un-Consitutional.

The problem that I see with this choice is that it is no choice. The "God of the Constitution" is just as much of an idol created by human minds as is the golden calf that Aaron made at the foot of Sinai. Aaron thought that it was pointing to the real God, but he was mistaken. The real God does not need us to mold something be it out of gold or written on paper to remind people of him or free them to worship him. He is. He does not need us to validate his existence.

Nor do I see our Constitution giving us any more freedom to worship God than God himself did by creating us with minds that cannot be chained just because our bodies might be. What the Constitution does is to limit the extent to which government can interfer with how we try to exercise the expression of worship, be it of the one true God or something else.

 

[GadFly]

The problem that I see with this choice is that it is no choice. The "God of the Constitution" is just as much of an idol created by human minds as is the golden calf that Aaron made at the foot of Sinai. Aaron thought that it was pointing to the real God, but he was mistaken. The real God does not need us to mold something be it out of gold or written on paper to remind people of him or free them to worship him. He is. He does not need us to validate his existence.

Nor do I see our Constitution giving us any more freedom to worship God than God himself did by creating us with minds that cannot be chained just because our bodies might be. What the Constitution does is to limit the extent to which government can interfer with how we try to exercise the expression of worship, be it of the one true God or something else.

Throughout the Bible God gave us the same choice, I am God, he said, there is no other. Take me as I am or be on your own. Since the beginning of time and even now, why do even Christians in their wisdom, why do they say, "This is no choice." Great believers in the Bible always said, "For me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

It took man ages to figure out exactly who and what God is. We are certainly still working on this clarity. Does anyone have God defined as yet? I think not!

Maybe the God in the Constitution is not 100% what each of us say he is, but it is not reasonable to say this God is an idol of our own making. Using this same logic, one could say the same thing about the God of the Bible. All logic must have a premise. The Premise for the Bible is the self evident God. Is the Bible unreasonable in your opinion? The Premise of the Constitution is the same God.

A person may not believe these Gods are one and the same but it is clear that the writers of the Constitution and declaration thought so. For this reason, they left no provisions or authority for any other foundation for our freedoms. Just what would you as a Christian and a UMC minister want to base our governoment on?

 

[GadFly]

Where in the Constitution are we authorized to worship anything else but God? It might be inferred so with the stretch of the imagination, that's all.

 

[GadFly]

That's the choice you see for your life. So you make your decisions based on that. You do not get to decide how others must view their *SELF* evident rights. The truth is evident in and of itself. You don't need to teach or preach God or Humanism to teach self evident truth. Mostly because of what it is SELF EVIDENT. Not God evident, or Humanism evident. Self evident. It's not even Gadfly evident.

In christian philosophy God is the one most self evident truth and all other self evident truths come from this one true God. Christ said, "I am the truth" and you and I base our lives and salvation on these truths. Are you some how reasoning this truth away?I don't think you mean to do that!

 

[sent one]

Look folks, the choice is between following the God of the Constitution or no God.There is no other choice allowed. You are free to define God in your own mind. Therre are few, if any, church that allows that freedom. Humanism has no written autthoriity in the Constition to determine human rights or challenge self evident truth. We the people hold these truths to be self evident. These are the rights we have but there is no right to vote on self evident truth. Majority rule is some times un-Consitutional.

I will yearn to live for and in the the Kingdom Of God. The Kingdom of God has nothing to do with the US Constitution!

Can you please give me where in the world the constitution mentions God other than the year of the Lord?

You are confusing, it seems to me, the US Constitution and the earlier Declaration of Independence, specifically the second paragraph of the DOI.

Please tell me where you find reference to this "God of The US Constitution", you say we must worship?

 

[sent one]

It is overwhelming how much "Scripture" shows that the USA and ALL nations do not represent and are not of the Kingdom of God. Would you like to discuss what the Bible actually has to say about all of this?

It is this very nationalism that made me so disillusioned with the American Church when I returned from overseas! That is why I am speaking out so much now.

 

[GraceSeeker]

Throughout the Bible God gave us the same choice, I am God, he said, there is no other. Take me as I am or be on your own. Since the beginning of time and even now, why do even Christians in their wisdom, why do they say, "This is no choice." Great believers in the Bible always said, "For me and my house, we will serve the Lord."

It took man ages to figure out exactly who and what God is. We are certainly still working on this clarity. Does anyone have God defined as yet? I think not!

Maybe the God in the Constitution is not 100% what each of us say he is, but it is not reasonable to say this God is an idol of our own making. Using this same logic, one could say the same thing about the God of the Bible. All logic must have a premise. The Premise for the Bible is the self evident God. Is the Bible unreasonable in your opinion? The Premise of the Constitution is the same God.

A person may not believe these Gods are one and the same but it is clear that the writers of the Constitution and declaration thought so. For this reason, they left no provisions or authority for any other foundation for our freedoms. Just what would you as a Christian and a UMC minister want to base our governoment on?

It can readily be obsevred from even a causual reading of the two documents that the premise for the Bible and the premise for the Constitution are not the same. And if you assert that there is a "God of the Constitution" (not something I see, but that you claim) from whom the premise on which the Constitution is based is derived, then it follows that the "god" that stands behind the Constitution giving rise to a different premise than that found with regard to God in the Bible must be a different God than the god of the Bible. And if different, then one is a false god. I choose to believe that the God of the Bible is the one true God. You may believe whatever you desire to believe -- God, not the Constitution, has created you with freedom of the will to do so -- but as for me (one who did serve this country in the military) if called to choose between God and the Constitution (and sometimes that really is what we are faced with), I will serve God.

 

[sent one]

removed and added in above post.

 

[rturner76]

In christian philosophy God is the one most self evident truth and all other self evident truths come from this one true God. Christ said, "I am the truth" and you and I base our lives and salvation on these truths. Are you some how reasoning this truth away?I don't think you mean to do that!

I think God's truth is not SELF EVIDENT, it is evident by reality or ontology I think you said it was. God created the universe and everything in it. Within that, we have knowledge of SELF. One does not need to understand God's truth to understand SELF EVIDENT truth. I think there is a different between the two truths. God's truth we may not even be able to fully comprehend with our mortal minds. Self evident truth is comprehended by anyone that can comprehend fairness or more like equality. That's the constitution. These self evident truths that all men are created equal. It doesn't go into what or how we were created, just that we are all created equal and should be treated as such. A good premise for a government of a mixed group of people I think.

Many people do not understand God, they still are American citizens because they were created equal to the people that do believe in God, they just don't believe in God's truth, only their own SELF EVIDENT truth. Have I confused anybody yet?

 

[Lee52]

The problem that I see with this choice is that it is no choice. The "God of the Constitution" is just as much of an idol created by human minds as is the golden calf that Aaron made at the foot of Sinai. Aaron thought that it was pointing to the real God, but he was mistaken. The real God does not need us to mold something be it out of gold or written on paper to remind people of him or free them to worship him. He is. He does not need us to validate his existence.

Nor do I see our Constitution giving us any more freedom to worship God than God himself did by creating us with minds that cannot be chained just because our bodies might be. What the Constitution does is to limit the extent to which government can interfer with how we try to exercise the expression of worship, be it of the one true God or something else.

 

[GadFly]

A flip side post to the title of the OP.

I have seen a danger very much alive in the Church in the USA. "Nationalism" and the belief that America was and can and should be a "Christian nation" This to me is doing more damage to the message of Christ in this nation than humanism in the church ever could. The Myth Of a Christian Nation is doing more harm to the cause of Christ than all of our PC and humanistic threats put together.

Let us put out a challenge here Sent One. How would you suggest that America repair the damage you see the American people of this nation has done to Christ? It sounds to me like many are coming out of the wood work to complain about the freedom we have to worship God. What is wrong with the idea that we are one nation under God? What are we missing here?

For Christians to infer that humanism, which is atheism, is less damaging to society than Christianity is a very strange thing to me. Are you sure that is what you are saying?

 

[GadFly]

I will yearn to live for and in the the Kingdom Of God. The Kingdom of God has nothing to do with the US Constitution!

Can you please give me where in the world the constitution mentions God other than the year of the Lord?

You are confusing, it seems to me, the US Constitution and the earlier Declaration of Independence, specifically the second paragraph of the DOI.

Please tell me where you find reference to this "God of The US Constitution", you say we must worship?

I do not say you must worship God Sent One. Don't you want to worship God? You are free to do so!

I did not say the Constitution named God. The Constitution was written in support of the Declaration which did name God as God and Creator. As Creator, God created all self evident truths and rights. The Constitution does make it clear that our rights do "not" come from man for these rights are self evident. This is where the Constitution references God. It is the same thing as naming God.

It is common sense and only logical, especially for a Christian, to firmly and without doubt, to believe in God as our national premise. Humanism can never rise to the level of Jesus Christ in the minds of Christians born of the Spirit. To me it is a type of madness that insist that Christians should limit the use of God in society and the nation.

Think of this Sent One, you can have "Nationalism" without God. Is that what you seek if having God is so dangerous? Where do you get this idea? It does not come from the Constitution that humanism and societal consensus is the creator of human rights, nor does it come from the Scriptures.

 

[GadFly]

It can readily be obsevred from even a causual reading of the two documents that the premise for the Bible and the premise for the Constitution are not the same. And if you assert that there is a "God of the Constitution" (not something I see, but that you claim) from whom the premise on which the Constitution is based is derived, then it follows that the "god" that stands behind the Constitution giving rise to a different premise than that found with regard to God in the Bible must be a different God than the god of the Bible. And if different, then one is a false god. I choose to believe that the God of the Bible is the one true God. You may believe whatever you desire to believe -- God, not the Constitution, has created you with freedom of the will to do so -- but as for me (one who did serve this country in the military) if called to choose between God and the Constitution (and sometimes that really is what we are faced with), I will serve God.

The God in the Bible is the God in the Constitution. Making a denial of this does not make it true. You failed to present any rationality for your reasoning. Most Americans and historians would certainly disagree with you on this point.

Look GraceSeeker, how you contradict yourself. You say exactly what the Constitution says. The Constitution supports our rights and freedoms come from God just as you say these rights and freedoms come from God. Just as we do not worship the Bible, we do not worship the paper the Constitution is written on. We do respect the God of the Bible and the same God of the Constitution.

You may believe whatever you desire to believe -- God, not the Constitution, has created you with freedom of the will to do so -- but as for me (one who did serve this country in the military) if called to choose between God and the Constitution (and sometimes that really is what we are faced with), I will serve God.

There is no such choice required and since you have served in the military, I think you know that. When you took the oath, to what God did you pledge?

 

[GadFly]

Gentlemen, this thread is about the dangers of liberal theology in the church. It is very much on topic I think. But what we see surfacing is that danger of liberal theology coming out strongly. Some of you in my opinion are arguing things that are not supported by the Bible, history or the Constitution. Some have supported "moral relativity" a very definite opposition-view to the Scriptures. Some have denied the God of the Constitution as the real God. Some have favored humanism over God as our national premise and some have simply said Amen to all this. Do you fellows really mean to say and support these revolutionary ideas about Christianity in America? I could name some forces in this secular world that would be pleased to hear your new testimonies but it would only anger some of you. Let's pray and think about what we say here as it is important to base our thoughts on the mind of Christ. I think you get this type of stuff when you allow political powers to influence you instead of the Scriptures.

 

[GadFly]

It is overwhelming how much "Scripture" shows that the USA and ALL nations do not represent and are not of the Kingdom of God. Would you like to discuss what the Bible actually has to say about all of this?

It is this very nationalism that made me so disillusioned with the American Church when I returned from overseas! That is why I am speaking out so much now.

Christ said that his kingdom was not of this world. Of course you would be disillusioned if you ever expected any country to be like the kingdom of God.
Yes, I would like to discuss any time what the Bible says about all this. Until Christ returns, for a start in discussion, thing will continue as always. There will be wars and rumors of wars until the end of time. All this is to help us to learn to obey and trust the Lord. What other choice do you have? You and I can be happy with this, can't we?

 

[sent one]

I posted this on yet another thread that said pretty much the same thing that of all your multiple threads you had started say. But I will post it here as well and will now refrain

To be honest, I could spend hours debating you on this forum. I came into this forum looking for some hope in the understanding of Christ and His Kingdom as opposed to the nationalistic right wing arguments of how America, and America's ideals and the American Constitution are God's kingdom come to earth! This crazy thinking has become so prevalent in American Christianity today.

I must say, as a newbie to this forum. to see this deception of a nationalistic God being argued over and over and over and over AND OVER again here by Gadfly in multiple threads in one way or another, is just plain disheartening to say the least. I could spend hour's of my time in debate (which apparently he loves and lives for), but I fear it would be of no profitable good for him nor me, and of no good and Godly use to do so.

I come here hoping for some Godly fellowship in my seeking a Church home, but I fear it is just like so much out there... God= Nationalism and American is God's light for the world. NO.. I do not agree... and I will refrain from further posting on such subjects and would hope the church and the one who argues this could just see just how ugly and how all the postings, over and over about all of this is not of the Kingdom of God and how this looks to those just coming in to this forum or just looking into Christ and His Church in general .

I came here for answers on how the Methodist church plays it part in the body of Christ and for the most part I have just seen the same old same old from a poster who post, OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER ... again. and over AGAIN of his view of the God of America and politics. And this from a former minister????? Sigh.

I now await at least three wordy posts from one poster that will keep on with his crusade! This has been the pattern I have seen since coming here.

 

[GraceSeeker]

For Christians to infer that humanism, which is atheism, is less damaging to society than Christianity is a very strange thing to me. Are you sure that is what you are saying?

I didn't see anyone either infer or imply this. But pseudo-Christianity (and it is present in many different forms) is a very dangerous thing.



For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Matthew 24:24

Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. Acts 20:302


Peter 2 is devoted entirely to how dangerous this sort of pseudo-Christianity can be. And one of the most dangerous aspect of it, is how much like the real thing the counterfeit can make itself appear to be.