LDS Curse of wanting to become like God

[Daniel Marsh]

Isaiah 14:12-20New International Version (NIV)

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”
18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
19 But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
20 you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.
Let the offspring of the wicked
never be mentioned again.

 

[Rescued One]

It depends on how you interpret the Bible. We were made in God's image, but we no longer have that image.

Romans 8
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 12
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

2 Corinthians 3
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

We can never be Gods! We are created beings. Lucifer was a created being. Becoming like Christ is to emulate His holiness.

John 15:8 RSV
By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.

2 Peter 1
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

James 1
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Mormons have added blasphemous words to their scriptures!
Book of Mormon, Chapter 132!

 

[Jane_Doe]

Do you find something wrong with trying to be like Jesus? No! Such is a noble goal! And through Christ such a transformation is possible- He is our Lord and Savior forever.

The sin of Lucifer here is not "trying to be like God", but trying to bypass Him. You notice how every verse in Lucifer's spiel is about himself and not about giving glory to God?

 

[Ironhold]

Matthew 5:

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Care to explain this, then?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Isaiah 14:12-20New International Version (NIV)

12 How you have fallen from heaven,
morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
“I will ascend to the heavens;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”
15 But you are brought down to the realm of the dead,
to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
“Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a wilderness,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?”
18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
19 But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
20 you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.
Let the offspring of the wicked
never be mentioned again.

Please note there are five I(s),
“I will ascend ...
I will raise my throne...
I will sit enthroned ....
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”

The Lord taught us
Matt 23: 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

 

[ViaCrucis]

There's also the small fact that the passage in Isaiah is referring Nebuchadnezzar II, not an angel, nor the devil, or anything of the like. And that "Lucifer" isn't the name of any angelic creature in the Bible, it's just the Latin translation of the Hebrew heylel and Greek eosphoros, the first meaning "brightness" or "that which is bright", and the latter meaning "dawn-bringer" (also called phosphoros, or "light-bringer). Both of these referred to the planet Venus, or the "morning star". The word "lucifer" is simply Latin for "light-bringer" and as such is a fairly direct translation of the Septuagint's rendering and a pretty fair rendering of the Hebrew. The continued use of the word "lucifer" and rendered as a proper name in English in early English Bible translations is largely due to the fact that some medieval churchmen believed the text contained a secondary, anagogical meaning; by which the hidden meaning was the fall of Satan, something the text simply never even comes close to hinting at. Thus it in the Latin of the Vulgate "lucifer" was an epithet of Satan, and at some point came to be taken as Satan's proper name, or at least his proper name before his fall from heaven.

One is of course free to believe that there are mystical, hidden meaning behind certain texts--though I would always caution against this as it can easily lead to all sorts of nonsense through enthusiastic eisegesis; but it should at least be understood that this idea that "Lucifer" is a name for Satan is based on a medieval, pretty uniquely western, mystical interpretation of Isaiah and on a rather unjustifiable continuation of a Latin word used as a proper name in a translation of a Hebrew text in English Bibles.

I'd say it would be better to just acknowledge that the text in question really is just talking about the king of Babylon, probably Nebuchadnezzar II, as that is the intended meaning by the author of the text because Isaiah is actually prophesying against Babylon. That also means there has never been an angel known as "Lucifer" outside of popular imagination. The chief of devils is known either as "the devil" or as "Satan", and his fall from grace is a story that we simply don't have knowledge about.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Rescued One]

Please note there are five I(s),
“I will ascend ...
I will raise my throne...
I will sit enthroned ....
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”

The Lord taught us
Matt 23: 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

Exalt means to lift up. It doesn't mean to be made a God.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Exalt means to lift up. It doesn't mean to be made a God.

What do you believe a person is being lifted up to then?

 

[withwonderingawe]

Exalt means to lift up. It doesn't mean to be made a God.

Ps 8
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the 'elohiym(s), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

We were made just a little lower that the Gods and God lifts us up to his level.

 

[Rescued One]

Ps 8
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the 'elohiym(s), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

We were made just a little lower that the Gods and God lifts us up to his level.

Psalm 8 (KJV)
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Psalm 8 (JST)
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him, and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels and hast crowned him with glory and honor.


Doctrine and Covenants 132 describes angels and gods as separate beings:
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Psalm 8 (KJV)
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Psalm 8 (JST)
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him, and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels and hast crowned him with glory and honor.


Doctrine and Covenants 132 describes angels and gods as separate beings:
17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.

I know the bias translators of the KJV rendered it angels but the actual Hebrew word is Gods. Jump up and down but it is what it is.

 

[Rescued One]

I know the bias translators of the KJV rendered it angels but the actual Hebrew word is Gods. Jump up and down but it is what it is.

Joseph Smith rendered it angels.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I know the bias translators of the KJV rendered it angels but the actual Hebrew word is Gods. Jump up and down but it is what it is.

So Joseph Smith was wrong? You admit it??

 

[Ironhold]

So Joseph Smith was wrong? You admit it??

And you went from here to there how now?

 

[Rescued One]

I know the bias translators of the KJV rendered it angels but the actual Hebrew word is Gods. Jump up and down but it is what it is.

And what is the actual Greek word in Hebrews 2:7?

ἀγγέλων

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Do you find something wrong with trying to be like Jesus? No! Such is a noble goal! And through Christ such a transformation is possible- He is our Lord and Savior forever.

The sin of Lucifer here is not "trying to be like God", but trying to bypass Him. You notice how every verse in Lucifer's spiel is about himself and not about giving glory to God?

verse 14 clearly says, I will make myself like the Most High.”

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Please note there are five I(s),
“I will ascend ...
I will raise my throne...
I will sit enthroned ....
I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High.”

The Lord taught us
Matt 23: 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

1 Peter 5:6
Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Peter 5 - English Standard Version

 

[Daniel Marsh]

There's also the small fact that the passage in Isaiah is referring Nebuchadnezzar II, not an angel, nor the devil, or anything of the like. And that "Lucifer" isn't the name of any angelic creature in the Bible, it's just the Latin translation of the Hebrew heylel and Greek eosphoros, the first meaning "brightness" or "that which is bright", and the latter meaning "dawn-bringer" (also called phosphoros, or "light-bringer). Both of these referred to the planet Venus, or the "morning star". The word "lucifer" is simply Latin for "light-bringer" and as such is a fairly direct translation of the Septuagint's rendering and a pretty fair rendering of the Hebrew. The continued use of the word "lucifer" and rendered as a proper name in English in early English Bible translations is largely due to the fact that some medieval churchmen believed the text contained a secondary, anagogical meaning; by which the hidden meaning was the fall of Satan, something the text simply never even comes close to hinting at. Thus it in the Latin of the Vulgate "lucifer" was an epithet of Satan, and at some point came to be taken as Satan's proper name, or at least his proper name before his fall from heaven.

One is of course free to believe that there are mystical, hidden meaning behind certain texts--though I would always caution against this as it can easily lead to all sorts of nonsense through enthusiastic eisegesis; but it should at least be understood that this idea that "Lucifer" is a name for Satan is based on a medieval, pretty uniquely western, mystical interpretation of Isaiah and on a rather unjustifiable continuation of a Latin word used as a proper name in a translation of a Hebrew text in English Bibles.

I'd say it would be better to just acknowledge that the text in question really is just talking about the king of Babylon, probably Nebuchadnezzar II, as that is the intended meaning by the author of the text because Isaiah is actually prophesying against Babylon. That also means there has never been an angel known as "Lucifer" outside of popular imagination. The chief of devils is known either as "the devil" or as "Satan", and his fall from grace is a story that we simply don't have knowledge about.

-CryptoLutheran

You are correct, that this text is used as a proof text for Satan's fall. I agree it is a human being being spoken about which is why I used it.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Exalt means to lift up. It doesn't mean to be made a God.

ex·alt
[ig- zawlt]
VERB (USED WITH OBJECT)
1.
to raise in rank, honor, power, character, quality, etc.; elevate: He was exalted to the position of president.
2.
to praise; extol: to exalt someone to the skies.
3.
to stimulate, as the imagination: The lyrics of Shakespeare exalted the audience.
4.
to intensify, as a color: complementary colors exalt each other.
5.
Obsolete. to elate, as with pride or joy.

LDS do not claim to be made a god, they claim to become like God. They teach as I understand them to be god in embryo.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Ps 8
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the 'elohiym(s), and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

We were made just a little lower that the Gods and God lifts us up to his level.

Not in nature as we would agree, but into heaven.