Creationists VS Creationist

[dawiyd]

Creationists VS Creationist

This post isn't going to be me sourcing evidence out to refute YEC, but other from other creationists posting "evidence" which they were using to dispute Evolution.

First of all AV1611VET claims the Earth is 6000 years old.
here: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25514561&postcount=310

I'll tell you --- this constantly repeating myself about how old I think this Earth is is what is getting old. I must have said it over 75 times by now, and I'm not exaggerating. Once again:
• Geological Age = n-millions?Existential Age = 6000 years

While JohnR7 post evidence that the Earth is ATLEAST 20,000 years old.

here: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25552615&postcount=4

Who is right, considering they both have G-d on the home team?

I'll post more when I come across then.

 

[JohnR7]

Creationists VS Creationist

First of all AV1611VET claims the Earth is 6000 years old.here: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25514561&postcount=310
While JohnR7 post evidence that the Earth is ATLEAST 20,000 years old.here: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25552615&postcount=4

There is no conflict here, your talking about two different thing. We both believe that Adam and Eve were placed by God in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago. The difference is that GAP's believe that there were people here before Adam and Eve. There was something very special about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, but that does not mean that there were not humanoids here before them.

We believe that Cain had to have married someone. He went to the land of Nod and found a wife there from the people who were living in that land at the time. HIs decendants lived about 8 generations and they you do not ever hear from them again.

 

[Skaloop]

There is no conflict here, your talking about two different thing. We both believe that Adam and Eve were placed by God in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago. The difference is that GAP's believe that there were people here before Adam and Eve. There was something very special about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, but that does not mean that there were not humanoids here before them.

But the OP is not talking about the Garden of Eden, it is talking about the creation of the Earth, and in that they do contradict.

AV said the Earth (the entire planet) was created 6000 years ago.

You said that Adam and Eve were created 6000 years ago, but that the Earth (and even human life) existed prior to that.

Those two statements contradict.

 

[Tomk80]

There is no conflict here, your talking about two different thing. We both believe that Adam and Eve were placed by God in the Garden of Eden 6,000 years ago. The difference is that GAP's believe that there were people here before Adam and Eve. There was something very special about Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, but that does not mean that there were not humanoids here before them.

We believe that Cain had to have married someone. He went to the land of Nod and found a wife there from the people who were living in that land at the time. HIs decendants lived about 8 generations and they you do not ever hear from them again.

Do you read your own posts? There is a conflict, as AV believes something other than you do and you both claim the bible as support. How is that not a conflict of opinions?

 

[Pete Harcoff]

And the best part is that they are both wrong.

 

[JohnR7]

But the OP is not talking about the Garden of Eden, it is talking about the creation of the Earth, and in that they do contradict.

The Bible does not contradict the Bible. The problem is our understanding of the Bible. Which is understandable, sense it is a 3500 year old document. TE, YEC, OEC & GAP tend to have a different interpretation of the Bible. Or at least Genesis ch 1 & 2 in the Bible.

This has been a question if you teach creationism in the schools, whos version do you teach. ID & IC seem to think that their version of creationism is more scientific. But science does not seem to agree with them. TE tends to reject ID because ID tends to be anti evolution.

It is no wonder people get confused, you just do not know the players without a program. New people come along all the time wanting to know what all of those letters stand for.

 

[JohnR7]

And the best part is that they are both wrong.

By all means, show me your evidence that GAP is wrong. Show me your evidence that there was no Garden in Eden and that there was not a man and a women in the Garden by the name of Adam and Eve. While your at it can you tell me why snakes do not have legs, because it talks about that in there also.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

By all means, show me your evidence that GAP is wrong. Show me your evidence that there was no Garden in Eden and that there was not a man and a women in the Garden by the name of Adam and Eve. While your at it can you tell me why snakes do not have legs, because it talks about that in there also.

See, you have it backwards. If you make a positive claim for it, you must substantiate it. I know you've made claims that there was some sort of re-creation event 6000 years ago, but you have to provide evidence for it. I have yet to see any evidence that your so-called "gap" theory is a correct view of origins.

 

[JohnR7]

See, you have it backwards. If you make a positive claim for it, you must substantiate

There is substantial DNA evidence. Also we have evidence from the study of language. Science tells us that the Hebews had a common ancestor that lived when the Bible says that Eve lived in the part of the world that the Bible says Eve lived in.

There are 18 different scientific Eve's. But this Eve, the one they call J. Has a lot in common with the Eve from the Bible. Of course it does not do much to establish the traditional understanding of the Bible. But this is an example of where science has shown the Bible to be true. A lot if not most of the traditional Christians accept evolution anyways, so what difference does it make? Even Dr Dino accepts some things from evolutionary theory. So even Dr Dino could be considered a partial TE. In fact the YEC need TE to get their beliefs to work a lot more then GAPs need it.

In the article in the November 2001 issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics, Ariella Oppenheim of the Hebrew University of Israel wrote that this new study revealed that Jews have a closer genetic relationship to populations in the northern Mediterranean (Kurds, Anatolian Turks, and Armenians) than to populations in the southern Mediterranean (Arabs and Bedouins).

There is soon going to be more evidence than every because they are doing one of the biggest DNA studes based on the what the preliminary data has shown. So soon they will have all of the Hebrew geneology maped out, from Eve to modern day Hebrews.

 

[Dale]

JohnR7:
"Show me your evidence that there was no Garden in Eden and that there was not a man and a women in the Garden by the name of Adam and Eve."

Very well. Genesis says that God put an angel, a Cherubim, with a flaming sword at the gate of Eden to prevent Adam, Eve and their descendants from returning. The Bible says nothing about God removing the Garden of Eden from the surface of the Earth. So where is it?

 

[notto]

But this Eve, the one they call J. Has a lot in common with the Eve from the Bible.

She was created from the rib of Adam after man was lonely because there was nobody else around?

Sorry John, the studies you keep referencing don't show that this common ancestor had much in common with Eve of the bible. She was a member of a daughter population that came from an earlier population. She was born from a woman, lived with other women, and there is no way to show that she mated with a single male that was created as is by God.

Can you be specific about what this common ancestor had in common with the Eve of the bible?

 

[JohnR7]

The Bible says nothing about God removing the Garden of Eden from the surface of the Earth. So where is it?

The traditional belief is that Eden was removed from the earth during the flood.

Ezekiel 31:9
I made it beautiful with a multitude of branches,
So that all the trees of Eden envied it,
That were in the garden of God.'

There is a referance to the great cedars in Lebanon. They were the next best thing in beauty to Eden. The women in Lebanon are beautiful also. Solomon used the great cedars of Lebanon to build the temple. They floated them down to Jerusalem. Some small patches of those cedars are still there today. Even if the great forests are gone.

We do have some lessons to learn from science. We know that the first cities were in this part of the world. Some of the oldest archeology is to be found here. In Syria, Turkey, Armenia. There is no question at all that this is where civilization began. In the furtile cresent the very same place the Bible talks about.

If you want to disregard the Bible, then you had best forget trying to do a study on the beginning of civilization and the begining of modern man. You will be disregarding to much of the information we have from written history. There was the library in nineveh. But a lot of that was just official records. There are not that many people who can translate those records. That is where they got The Epic of Gilgamesh from.

So from reading the Bible and from the study of archeology and other books of history we can start to learn the story about these ancient people that we can all claim as our forefathers. If you want to take the time and the trouble to study on these things.

 

[JohnR7]

Sorry John, the studies you keep referencing don't show that this common ancestor had much in common with Eve of the bible. She was a member of a daughter population that came from an earlier population. She was born from a woman, lived with other women, and there is no way to show that she mated with a single male that was created as is by God.

Those are all issues that need to be resolved, I am fully aware of that.

But science Eve and Bible Eve do have something in common, they lived in the same geographic location at the same point in time. So if they were not the same person, then there is a good chance they knew each other. Because according to science there were only about 300 people there at the time.

Also we need to remember that the Hebrews decended from Sarah, but the Arabs even though they share the same father: Abraham, they decended from the Egyptian Hagar. I fully expect in the next few years that the DNA evidence for the geneologys will show all of this. As you know, men are traced though the Y or the father and women are traced through the mother. The same identical DNA is handed down from generation to generation all the way back to the beginning 140,000 years ago.

Can you be specific about what this common ancestor had in common with the Eve of the bible?

Yes, they were both considered to be the most recent common ancestor for the Hebrew people. Also they have their name in common. The Bible and Science both refer to them as Eve. Even if science says that there were 18 other Eves. I sort of suspected that all along anyways. Scientific Eve was the most recent though, there may have been 17 other Eves but they all were older then the Hebrew Eve. She is the most recent.

Science has a story to tell us about Hebrew Eve, they know quite a bit about her. But I can not go into all of that right now. Even though I have talked about it in the past. The thing about Bible and Science is you can not go where you want to go. You have to go where the evidence takes you.

 

[Jase]

There are 18 different scientific Eve's. But this Eve, the one they call J. Has a lot in common with the Eve from the Bible. Of course it does not do much to establish the traditional understanding of the Bible. But this is an example of where science has shown the Bible to be true. A lot if not most of the traditional Christians accept evolution anyways, so what difference does it make? Even Dr Dino accepts some things from evolutionary theory. So even Dr Dino could be considered a partial TE. In fact the YEC need TE to get their beliefs to work a lot more then GAPs need it.

All creationists accept evolution. They just claim they don't accept the other part of evolution, which is really the same thing, but creationists pretend it isn't.

And the only thing Mr. Dino is considered is a fraud.

 

[madarab]

JohnR7 brings up an interesting point. He seems to be accepting DNA evidence. (Now, we know that he's doing this only because he thinks the evidence supports his religious beliefs.) What he hasn't considered is the limbed talking snake that plays such a large role in the second chapter of Genesis. If this story is literal, then we should likewise expect that all snakes everywhere on the planet should show this same kind of common descent from that original deity-altered snake in the Garden of Eden. JohnR7 is going to have problems with that because the actual scientific evidence pretty clearly shows that snakes are over 100 million years old, rather than the 6000 years that his myth requires.

JonhR7, any place your fable can be tested scientifically, it comes up short. You've engaged in the same kind of picking and choosing of the scientific facts as the least reputable of the creationists. Your attempt here is nothing different from Morris' drek about dissolved solids in the ocean. Consider yourself pwned!

 

[time]

...

While JohnR7 post evidence that the Earth is ATLEAST 20,000 years old.
...[/I]

No, mutations in dna is nothing like evidence of great age, sorry.

 

[time]

The traditional belief is that Eden was removed from the earth during the flood.

?????? Eve lived 1600 years, or about 700 years longer than Adam? You jest?

We do have some lessons to learn from science. We know that the first cities were in this part of the world. Some of the oldest archeology is to be found here. In Syria, Turkey, Armenia. There is no question at all that this is where civilization began. In the furtile cresent the very same place the Bible talks about.

Wrong, I might suggest.
How about the place near where the ark landed. Where do you go stuffing Eden in there????

So from reading the Bible and from the study of archeology and other books of history we can start to learn the story about these ancient people that we can all claim as our forefathers. If you want to take the time and the trouble to study on these things.

And if one does take the time, how would it be that Eden was there, in the fertile cresent?

 

[maleparent]

I had a dream once where I was visited by someone who i think was an angel. it was imposible to say if it was a man or a woman. if it was a man then he was very beautiful. if it was a woman then she was very strong. i felt love flowing from this angel which is how i knew it was from god. there was no fear or hate.

i was having trouble with my faith at the time. bad things had happened and i wondered if god had left me. this angel said GOD had never abandond me. we spoke for a while. i asked about the age of the earth. this angel told me that science was wrong. but not that it meant to be wrong. science is not evil just wrong. the angel told me that GOD created like it says in the BIBLE and that the earth is 6,000 years old.

That is how I KNOW that I am right when I believe that the Earth is young.

 

[time]

I had a dream once where I was visited by someone who i think was an angel. it was imposible to say if it was a man or a woman. if it was a man then he was very beautiful. if it was a woman then she was very strong. i felt love flowing from this angel which is how i knew it was from god. there was no fear or hate.

i was having trouble with my faith at the time. bad things had happened and i wondered if god had left me. this angel said GOD had never abandond me. we spoke for a while. i asked about the age of the earth. this angel told me that science was wrong. but not that it meant to be wrong. science is not evil just wrong. the angel told me that GOD created like it says in the BIBLE and that the earth is 6,000 years old.

That is how I KNOW that I am right when I believe that the Earth is young.

And right you are.

 

[dawiyd]

I had a dream once where I was visited by someone who i think was an angel. it was imposible to say if it was a man or a woman. if it was a man then he was very beautiful. if it was a woman then she was very strong. i felt love flowing from this angel which is how i knew it was from god. there was no fear or hate.

i was having trouble with my faith at the time. bad things had happened and i wondered if god had left me. this angel said GOD had never abandond me. we spoke for a while. i asked about the age of the earth. this angel told me that science was wrong. but not that it meant to be wrong. science is not evil just wrong. the angel told me that GOD created like it says in the BIBLE and that the earth is 6,000 years old.

That is how I KNOW that I am right when I believe that the Earth is young.

And every point of modern science and me disagrees with you and this angel, in a scientific debate you can't call in angels to back up your position.