Creationist Verses

[RightWingGirl]

The only means by which I could be persuaded to accept YEC is either direct revelation from God (the clouds open up and a big finger comes out of the sky, points at my nose and a booming voice says "I created in six days, now bugger off!" or if Creation revealed itself to be created in six days.

Chaos, I know this is a bit off an odd question, but I think it may be pertinent.

How would you know what "I created in six days, now bugger off!" meant? He could mean that He is just a mighty God, or something, how would you know what He actually meant?

 

[Marshall Janzen]

I think that Dut.5 was written on the tablets and Exodus 20 was spoken by God.

Deuteronomy 5:22 says, "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me."

And you think this "them" that I bolded refers to something other than the words God spoke that are recorded in the earlier verses of Deuteronomy 5?

That's fine -- just keep in mind you're in no position to lecture others about holding to the "plain reading" of Scripture.

 

[RightWingGirl]

OK, now we're getting somewhere.

But, if you will, let me ask you this: The Ten Commandments I can understand, since we have the story of how they are understood to have originated. But why Gen 1? What is it about that part of scripture that leads you to believe that it was directly written by God while most of everthing else was inspired?

I don't think that Genesis 1 was written directly by God.

And what about the Gospels? Are any parts of those directly written, or are they 'just' inspired?

Directly written? no. Directly spoken in parts, yes.

 

[RightWingGirl]

Deuteronomy 5:22 says, "These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me."

And you think this "them" that I bolded refers to something other than the words God spoke that are recorded in the earlier verses of Deuteronomy 5?

That's fine -- just keep in mind you're in no position to lecture others about holding to the "plain reading" of Scripture.

Yes, I think the "them" refers to the preceeding words, and those words were written in tablets of stone.

To clarify something. I do not think that every last word in the Bible is literal. There are numerous metaphors and similes Song of Solomen, and there are some in other places also.

 

[Marshall Janzen]

Yes, I think the "them" refers to the preceeding words, and those words were written in tablets of stone.

Okay, maybe I bolded the wrong words:

"These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me."

So the "them" refers to the preceding words, but the "these words" refers to Exodus 20?

 

[RightWingGirl]

Okay, maybe I bolded the wrong words:

"These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more. And he wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me."

So the "them" refers to the preceding words, but the "these words" refers to Exodus 20?

No, "these words" are the words God spoke to "all the assembly"---in Duet. 5. Whereas in Exodus 20 the people saw lightning and thunder but Moses was the one that heard the words.


Exodus
And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.
Exd 19:20 And the LORD came down upon mount Sinai, on the top of the mount: and the LORD called Moses [up] to the top of the mount; and Moses went up
Exd 19:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish…….
So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
And God spake all these words saying; -----------
-- And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw [it], they removed, and stood afar off.




Duet. 5
The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, [even] us, who [are] all of us here alive this day.
The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
Deu 5:23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, [even] all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;

 

[Marshall Janzen]

That certainly is a creative interpretation. Why do you think God didn't reveal to the assembly that he created the world in six days, and this is why they were to observe the Sabbath, if that was so important? Why did he save that little revelation for his private conversation with Moses?

Do you find it even a little bit curious that Exodus doesn't record anything about this different conversation to the assembly, and Deuteronomy doesn't record anything about this different conversation to Moses?

Edit: One more problem with your interpretation. "And the LORD said to Moses, 'Behold, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever' " (Exodus 19:9). Apparently, the assembly heard what God spoke to Moses from the cloud.

 

[RightWingGirl]

That certainly is a creative interpretation. Why do you think God didn't reveal to the assembly that he created the world in six days, and this is why they were to observe the Sabbath, if that was so important? Why did he save that little revelation for his private conversation with Moses?

The Hebrews were told both, but only one was written down for future reference.
The one written down for future reference was the version that would be more applicable to the Hebrews once they came to Israel and settled down, and to people in general, while the first version was more applicable to the Hebrews when they were wandering in the desert.

 

[RightWingGirl]

T
Edit: One more problem with your interpretation. "And the LORD said to Moses, 'Behold, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever' " (Exodus 19:9). Apparently, the assembly heard what God spoke to Moses from the cloud.

Exodus 19:24
And the LORD said unto him, Away, get thee down, and thou shalt come up, thou, and Aaron with thee: but let not the priests and the people break through to come up unto the LORD, lest he break forth upon them.

It seems that God first told Moses Exodus 20, and then told him to go talk to the people, and also sanctify the priests, and then come back up with Aaron, and then the Lord would speak to Moses from the mountain that all of the people would believe him.

 

[Marshall Janzen]

The Hebrews were told both, but only one was written down for future reference.

But that's not what it says. What God said to Moses would be heard by the assembly:

"And the LORD said to Moses, 'Behold, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.' " (Exodus 19:9)

And, Deuteronomy 5 contains the entire record of what God said:

"These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more." (Deuteronomy 5:22)

Contrary to what you've asserted, it seems that God did not add a few comments about creation not found in this passage.

 

[RightWingGirl]

But that's not what it says. What God said to Moses would be heard by the assembly:

"And the LORD said to Moses, 'Behold, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and may also believe you forever.' " (Exodus 19:9)

Does it say that every last word God would speak to Moses would be heard by all?
(Exodus 19:21)And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish.
Obviously this was not heard by all the people. Why would God need Moses to go down and repeat what He had said if everyone already heard it?

And, Deuteronomy 5 contains the entire record of what God said:

"These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more." (Deuteronomy 5:22)

Contrary to what you've asserted, it seems that God did not add a few comments about creation not found in this passage.

"These words the LORD spoke to all your assembly at the mountain out of the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and he added no more."

He added no more to the words he spoke to all the assembly. If Duet. 5 includes every word God spoke to anyone on the mountain, why doesn't it contain verses Exodus 19:20-24?

 

[Marshall Janzen]

Does it say that every last word God would speak to Moses would be heard by all?
(Exodus 19:21)And the LORD said unto Moses, Go down, charge the people, lest they break through unto the LORD to gaze, and many of them perish.
Obviously this was not heard by all the people. Why would God need Moses to go down and repeat what He had said if everyone already heard it?

Now I'm thoroughly confused as to what you mean. Are we up to three versions of the decalogue now?

1. The version God spoke to Moses that the assembly didn't hear very well.
2. The version God spoke to the assembly that differed from the version God spoke to Moses.
3. The version Moses spoke to the assembly later.

Am I following so far? If so, could you state which of these versions is in Exodus and which is in Deuteronomy, and which was actually written on the stone tablets? (I'm hoping your view doesn't end up with different versions written on the different sets of tablets. This is already confusing enough!)

He added no more to the words he spoke to all the assembly. If Duet. 5 includes every word God spoke to anyone on the mountain, why doesn't it contain verses Exodus 19:20-24?

I'm quite fine with "added no more" being interpreted contextually to just refer to the decalogue that Deuteronomy 5 is recounting. In other words, there's no words snuck in between the commandments that aren't present in Deuteronomy 5 -- such as Exodus 20:11. I think extra words like that are inspired commentary on the commands, and not directly part of the commands God spoke and wrote. That seems to be a far easier way to reconcile it.

Either that, or at least one of the two accounts has been edited or isn't all that accurate. But, I'm presuming inerrancy and no redaction for purposes of this discussion.

 

[RightWingGirl]

Now I'm thoroughly confused as to what you mean. Are we up to three versions of the decalogue now?

1. The version God spoke to Moses that the assembly didn't hear very well.
2. The version God spoke to the assembly that differed from the version God spoke to Moses.
3. The version Moses spoke to the assembly later.

There are only two versions--your #1. & #2. are the same, the commandments given in Exodus 20 to Moses, and spoken by Moses to the people.
#3 is the version spoken by God to the whole assembly, and written down on two tablets of stone and in Duet. 5. At least that is what it seems to me.

 

[gluadys]

There are three versions.

One is in Exodus 20: 2-17
A second is a very similar, but not identical version found in Deuteronomy 5: 6-21

Presumably one of these, or still a third unknown variation of these, were written on the first tables of stone--the ones that Moses broke.

A third version is found in Exodus 34:10-26. The preceeding and the following verses indicate that this was the version written on the second set of tablets.

It is also the only version which is specifically called "the ten commandments" in scripture.

Well worth reading, because it is very different from the more familiar versions.

 

[chaoschristian]

Chaos, I know this is a bit off an odd question, but I think it may be pertinent.

How would you know what "I created in six days, now bugger off!" meant? He could mean that He is just a mighty God, or something, how would you know what He actually meant?

My apologies for taking so long to respond to this.

My example was a bit of a caricature, but was meant to represent the concept that however the direct revelation occurred it would occur is such a way as to leave no doubt about it source and authenticity and no doubt or room for interpretation in its message.

 

[RightWingGirl]

My apologies for taking so long to respond to this.

My example was a bit of a caricature, but was meant to represent the concept that however the direct revelation occurred it would occur is such a way as to leave no doubt about it source and authenticity and no doubt or room for interpretation in its message.

In Exodus 20:11, what possible method could God have used, in what manner could He have written it, to get across the point that the world was created in six days. (supposing He wanted to get that point across) How would He leave no room for interpretation?



I am assuming that you belive that Jesus came in the flesh and rose from the dead. How were you convinced of this fact in such a way as to leave no doubt about it's source and authenticity and no room for interpretation in its message? What proof have you?

How do you know that this happened in the first place? If the scriptures, at least in places, are open to "doubt about source and authenticity, and have room for various interpretations" as you imply, you cannot take them as proof sufficient to cause belief in such a miraculous event. Modern science tells us that a man cannot rise from the dead. If the Bible cannot be trusted to be factual, how do you know that Jesus Christ came as a man died, and rose again?

 

[KerrMetric]

In Exodus 20:11, what possible method could God have used, in what manner could He have written it, to get across the point that the world was created in six days. (supposing He wanted to get that point across) How would He leave no room for interpretation?



I am assuming that you belive that Jesus came in the flesh and rose from the dead. How were you convinced of this fact in such a way as to leave no doubt about it's source and authenticity and no room for interpretation in its message? What proof have you?

How do you know that this happened in the first place? If the scriptures, at least in places, are open to "doubt about source and authenticity, and have room for various interpretations" as you imply, you cannot take them as proof sufficient to cause belief in such a miraculous event. Modern science tells us that a man cannot rise from the dead. If the Bible cannot be trusted to be factual, how do you know that Jesus Christ came as a man died, and rose again?

This is such a simplistic interpretation and renders the concept of faith moot.

 

[gluadys]

I am assuming that you belive that Jesus came in the flesh and rose from the dead.

You are correct in your assumption.

How were you convinced of this fact in such a way as to leave no doubt about it's source and authenticity and no room for interpretation in its message?

I wasn't. Never have been. I have always been aware this is a matter of belief, not of knowledge. And that it is open to both doubt and numerous interpretations. That is the inherent risk of belief: that we could be wrong.

What proof have you?

None. What proof do you have?

 

[chaoschristian]

In Exodus 20:11, what possible method could God have used, in what manner could He have written it, to get across the point that the world was created in six days. (supposing He wanted to get that point across) How would He leave no room for interpretation?

Exodus 20:11 cannot be lifted out of context and used as indicative evidence for 6-day creation.

That verse is an intergrated part of a story.

Here is what the story says:

Exodus 20

The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.
4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
13 "You shall not murder.
14 "You shall not commit adultery.
15 "You shall not steal.
16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."
18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."
20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning." 21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

Please note how verse 11 is part of the Sabbath Day commandment, and serves as part of God's rationale for the commandment. Verse 11 needs verses 8-10 to make sense in the context of this story.

Verse 11 is not here to serve as a creation story in and of itself, but as a reminder that even God rested after the act of creation. So rest on the seventh day after six days of work, because God did too and that seventh day is holy because of that.

So, there's no need to go looking for ways to make verse 11 turn into an account of creation, literal or allegorical, because it's not there to serve that purpose. The recounting of creation in verse 11 serves as justification for a rule.

The very interesting thing is that this is the only commandment that is given a justification in Exodus 20. All the others are simply commandment. Do this. Period. Or do this and if you don't get ready for the smiting.

Only when it comes to the sabbath day and its holiness does God seem interested in providing a 'why' to His commandment. Rest because I rested.

This in fact is a very powerful story, because it seems that God is trying really hard to make it clear that He really, really wants us to take the time for rest, set aside the cares of the world and of our toil, and make room in our lives to share in His holiness. God wants us to be in relationship with Him.

I am assuming that you belive that Jesus came in the flesh and rose from the dead.

No need to assume, as I have affirmed CE's faith statement, which includes the Nicene Creed. I am boringly orthodox in my Christian beliefs.

How were you convinced of this fact in such a way as to leave no doubt about it's source and authenticity and no room for interpretation in its message? What proof have you?

Convinced? Convicted is more like it. My faith is allowed only through the preventative, convicting, justifying and sanctifying Grace of God. Without His Grace I would have no faith. In fact, I was most certainly quite faithless for 15 years before accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.

As for my proof, I have only my conviction and my witness.

How do you know that this happened in the first place? If the scriptures, at least in places, are open to "doubt about source and authenticity, and have room for various interpretations" as you imply, you cannot take them as proof sufficient to cause belief in such a miraculous event. Modern science tells us that a man cannot rise from the dead. If the Bible cannot be trusted to be factual, how do you know that Jesus Christ came as a man died, and rose again?

Where is it held in orthodox Christian belief that one needs scripture to have faith in Jesus Christ, Lord and Saviour?

My faith in Christ in independent of the Bible, and all of the questions I have regarding the Bible and the scripture that is found within it.

You seem to be forgetting that I am a Christian. I am a Christian and because of that I am a Creationist - I believe God the Father is the Creator of all. Science has nothing to do with that belief.

However, when it comes to examining the revelation of Creation, science is a most useful and profoundly fruitful tool. Through science and reason Creation reveals to us the parts of God's truth that scripture was not intended to reveal. Just as scripture reveals to us the parts of God's truth that Creation was not intended to reveal - such as the divine soveignty of Christ the Saviour and the story of His resurrection.

You are right though, I don't trust scripture to be factual. I trust, through my faith, that it is truthful.

 

[RightWingGirl]

Exodus 20:11 cannot be lifted out of context and used as indicative evidence for 6-day creation.

That verse is an intergrated part of a story.

Here is what the story says:



Please note how verse 11 is part of the Sabbath Day commandment, and serves as part of God's rationale for the commandment. Verse 11 needs verses 8-10 to make sense in the context of this story.

Verse 11 is not here to serve as a creation story in and of itself, but as a reminder that even God rested after the act of creation. So rest on the seventh day after six days of work, because God did too and that seventh day is holy because of that.


The very interesting thing is that this is the only commandment that is given a justification in Exodus 20. All the others are simply commandment. Do this. Period. Or do this and if you don't get ready for the smiting.

Only when it comes to the sabbath day and its holiness does God seem interested in providing a 'why' to His commandment. Rest because I rested.

That is an interesting interpretation. When do you think God rested, and after what, specifically?

Convinced? Convicted is more like it. My faith is allowed only through the preventative, convicting, justifying and sanctifying Grace of God. Without His Grace I would have no faith. In fact, I was most certainly quite faithless for 15 years before accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour.

As for my proof, I have only my conviction and my witness.

I think I worded my question wrong. How did you learn in the first place that God came down to earth, was made flesh, died and rose again? When you first learned this event ever happened how were you told, if the Bible cannot be trusted to be factual on historical matters? What did you trust in and take as truth although it contradicted science? For science tells us man cannot rise again.

My faith in Christ in independent of the Bible, and all of the questions I have regarding the Bible and the scripture that is found within it.

[BIBLE]Rom. 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God[/BIBLE]