chaoschristian
Well-Known Member
RightWingGirl said:That is an interesting interpretation. When do you think God rested, and after what, specifically?
What do I think? I think the whole purpose behind that particular part of scripture is to remind us to take some serious period of time and set it aside as a time in which we are primarily connecting with our spiritual selves and furthering our relationship with God.
It's not so much important to answer "When did God rest and after what." but to remember that God did rest and because of that we are to rest as well.
I think I worded my question wrong. How did you learn in the first place that God came down to earth, was made flesh, died and rose again? When you first learned this event ever happened how were you told, if the Bible cannot be trusted to be factual on historical matters? What did you trust in and take as truth although it contradicted science? For science tells us man cannot rise again.
Deconstructing 35 years of history, especially the last 20 or so, isn't going to be an easy task. Sure you want me to do it?
Seriously, I think you're putting too sharp a point on this. There are a lot of really good recent posts in the forum on how nature =/= without God, and how the dichotomy between science and faith may be artificially inflated in an unwarranted way.
Also I seem to be seeing a quality of fact=truth; non-fact=non-truth in your thinking. If this is so, then we have a hurdle to surmount, since fact=/=truth in my POV.
[bible]Rom. 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God[/bible]
Again, let's look at the whole story:
Romans 10:1-21 NIV said:Romans 10
1Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
5Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will live by them."[a] 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentilethe same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[g]
16But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our message?"[h] 17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. 18But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
"Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world." 19Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,
"I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."[j] 20And Isaiah boldly says,
"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."[k] 21But concerning Israel he says,
"All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.
Here Paul is talking about his desire to save the Jewish people. And he's pulling from about six different texts fromt the OT, if I read my notes correctly to try an establish a theological proof as to why the scripture (which, remember, would have been the OT to Paul and his audience - not our modern Bible) points to Christ as the Saviour, and why He is the Saviour of Jews and non-Jews alike.
Most pertinent to your question are verse 14-15
Romans 10:14-15 CEV said:14How can people have faith in the Lord and ask him to save them, if they have never heard about him? And how can they hear, unless someone tells them? 15And how can anyone tell them without being sent by the Lord? The Scriptures say it is a beautiful sight to see even the feet of someone coming to preach the good news.
Here Paul lays out a concise logical progression as to how one arrives at belief: asking for help founded upon belief founded upon hearing founded upon telling (witness) founded upon being sent.
Turn it around and what Paul is saying is that the Lord sends a messenger to tell to the hearing ear of a ready believer, who called for help, the Good News that God indeed is ready and willing to respond to this call and help (save.)
I'm not a Bible scholar. I know neither Greek nor Hebrew, but in my reading of these English translations, what I see is Paul establishing a theological principal: the Good News is heard through the telling. Wow! What a testament to the oral tradition of Paul's day.
Now, let's look at verse 17 in this light:
Romans 10:17 CEV said:17No one can have faith without hearing the message about Christ.
Romans 10:17 NIV said:17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Romans 10:17 NASB said:17So faith comes from (Z)hearing, and hearing by (AA)the word of Christ.
Christ is the emphasis here, not scripture.
The Jews have scripture, and their understanding of it let them down. What Paul is saying is that in order to save the Jews the church most go out and speak of the Good News of Christs salvation to them directly. Those who are ready to listen will be witnessed to by those who have been prepared for God.
So, is v17 saying that faith is founded upon scripture? I don't think so, since Paul is talking about the Jews, who at that time had scripture and thought they had a completely understanding of it.
No v17 is saying that faith is established upon hearing the message of Christ - being told about Christ's redemptive story - something that would not have been found in scripture at that time.
Finally, keep in mind that I am not saying that scripture is unnecessary. I am saying that scripture is unnecessary for faith.
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