Creationism proponents wanted: no scruples necessary

[Christian Soldier]

"Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory. The litany is familiar: cold, dispassionate, objective, modern science shows us that races can be ranked on a scale of superiority. If this offends Christian morality or a sentimental belief in human unity, so be it; science must be free to proclaim unpleasant truths."

Stephen Jay Gould, Ontogeny and Phylogeny
Harvard University Press

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[gaara4158]

If Nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile.

Fail. Nature has no wish; life becomes better-equipped for survival not because of any strife or goal, but simply because the better-equipped tend to survive more. Using evolution as an excuse is just another way of introducing some threat that will instill patriotism and unity in the Germans. It had very little to do with the actual theory of evolution itself. Need I remind you that Hitler used faith in his speeches as well?

"Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following the acceptance of evolutionary theory. The litany is familiar: cold, dispassionate, objective, modern science shows us that races can be ranked on a scale of superiority. If this offends Christian morality or a sentimental belief in human unity, so be it; science must be free to proclaim unpleasant truths."

It's true that there should be no bias in what science dares to discover, but the way he paints it, you'd think there's a clear rank of superiority among the races. For one thing, he fails to specify what he means by superiority... does he mean physically? intuitively? creatively? mentally? Also, studies have shown that there is more diversity within individual races than there is between the different races themselves.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Fail. Nature has no wish; life becomes better-equipped for survival not because of any strife or goal, but simply because the better-equipped tend to survive more. Using evolution as an excuse is just another way of introducing some threat that will instill patriotism and unity in the Germans. It had very little to do with the actual theory of evolution itself. Need I remind you that Hitler used faith in his speeches as well?

OF COURSE his argument FAILS. Evolution FAILS. Evolutionists are OFTEN wrong, just like the evolutionist Hitler was WRONG.

But evolutionists like the Nazis, Communists and Fascists, never let their errors get in the way of murdering, torturing, enslaving and imprisoning MILLIONS of innocent people.

"Natural Selection" has NO intelligence, so it CANNOT "select" anything. The only way evolution by selection could POSSIBLY be true, is through THEISTIC evolution, but TE has plenty of holes in it also.

 

[ragarth]

Christian Soldier, let's not start a quotes and links war. Bad people will use anything to advance their goals, whether it be bad science or religion, both have been misused and misinterpreted in the past. To pop a few quotes as proof as to why you don't believe something is disingenuous and poor critical thinking skills.

 

[gaara4158]

OF COURSE his argument FAILS. Evolution FAILS. Evolutionists are OFTEN wrong, just like the evolutionist Hitler was WRONG.

I'm sorry they told you that. If you'll read my post again, Hitler doesn't fail because of any failure in evolution; he failed because he arrived at a philosophical and moral conclusion from a scientific fact, which doesn't work. Evolutionists, as you call them, are often wrong, yes. They are only human. But the theory of evolution, in light of the total evidence, stands strong.

But evolutionists like the Nazis, Communists and Fascists, never let their errors get in the way of murdering, torturing, enslaving and imprisoning MILLIONS of innocent people.

I'm sorry I even stepped into the ring with you. Evolution has nothing to do with any political agenda. It describes a process by which lifeforms change over generations.

"Natural Selection" has NO intelligence, so it CANNOT "select" anything. The only way evolution by selection could POSSIBLY be true, is through THEISTIC evolution, but TE has plenty of holes in it also.

There is no consciousness selecting certain organisms over others, no. By "select," we mean that the organism successfully passes its genes on to the next generation, as does its offspring, as does its offspring.

Now, what have we learned today?

 

[Split Rock]

OF COURSE his argument FAILS. Evolution FAILS. Evolutionists are OFTEN wrong, just like the evolutionist Hitler was WRONG.

But evolutionists like the Nazis, Communists and Fascists, never let their errors get in the way of murdering, torturing, enslaving and imprisoning MILLIONS of innocent people.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." -Adolf Hitler, Christian Mass Murderer

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
-Adolf Hitler, Christian Mass Murderer

 

[Christian Soldier]

"[Ernst] Haeckel was the chief apostle of evolution in Germany. Nordenskiold (1929) argues that he was even more influential than Darwin in convincing the world of the truth of evolution. Yet influential as Haeckel was among scientists, his general impact was even greater. Nordenskiold writes: "There are not many personalities who have so powerfully influenced the development of human culture--and that, too, in many different spheres--as Haeckel" (p. 505).

From the 1880's onward, he focused increasing attention on the political, social, and religious implications of his biological views--a set of ideas that he amalgamated into his "monistic" philosophy....But, as Gasman argues, Haeckel's greatest influence was, ultimately, in another, tragic direction--national socialism.

His evolutionary racism; his call to the German people for racial purity and unflinching devotion to a "just" state; his belief that harsh, inexorable laws of evolution ruled human civilization and nature alike, conferring upon favored races the right to dominate others; the irrational mysticism that had always stood in strange communion with his brave words about objective science--all contributed to the rise of Naziism. The Monist League that he had founded and led, though it included a wing of pacifists and leftists, made a comfortable transition to active support for Hitler."

Stephen Jay Gould, Ontogeny and Phylogeny, Belknap Press of Harvard University

--------

Well-read individuals know that Haeckel was one of the most prominent evolutionists in history, and still the best-known and most influential biologist in German history. His influence on Hitler and the Nazis was enormous, as Gould readily admits.

 

[gaara4158]

"[Ernst] Haeckel was the chief apostle of evolution in Germany. Nordenskiold (1929) argues that he was even more influential than Darwin in convincing the world of the truth of evolution. Yet influential as Haeckel was among scientists, his general impact was even greater. Nordenskiold writes: "There are not many personalities who have so powerfully influenced the development of human culture--and that, too, in many different spheres--as Haeckel" (p. 505).

From the 1880's onward, he focused increasing attention on the political, social, and religious implications of his biological views--a set of ideas that he amalgamated into his "monistic" philosophy....But, as Gasman argues, Haeckel's greatest influence was, ultimately, in another, tragic direction--national socialism.

His evolutionary racism; his call to the German people for racial purity and unflinching devotion to a "just" state; his belief that harsh, inexorable laws of evolution ruled human civilization and nature alike, conferring upon favored races the right to dominate others; the irrational mysticism that had always stood in strange communion with his brave words about objective science--all contributed to the rise of Naziism. The Monist League that he had founded and led, though it included a wing of pacifists and leftists, made a comfortable transition to active support for Hitler."

Stephen Jay Gould, Ontogeny and Phylogeny, Belknap Press of Harvard University

--------

Well-read individuals know that Haeckel was one of the most prominent evolutionists in history, and still the best-known and most influential biologist in German history. His influence on Hitler and the Nazis was enormous, as Gould readily admits.

Why are you still babbling about this? I've already fully covered the evolution vs racism issue. You just have to read it.

I'm not here to argue with Mr. Gould. You may use quotes in support of your argument, not in lieu of it.

 

[Christian Soldier]

"Hitler stressed and singled out the idea of biological evolution as the most forceful weapon against traditional religion and he repeatedly condemned Christianity for its opposition to the teachings of evolution. For Hitler, evolution was the hallmark of modern science and culture, and he defended its veracity as tenaciously as Haeckel."

Daniel Gasman, The Scientific Origins of National Socialism

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[gaara4158]

Continuous fail.

 

[ragarth]

Christian Soldier:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade
http://www.burningcross.net/crusades/christian-missionary-atrocities.html
http://www.aryan-nations.org/about.htm
http://www.enotes.com/genocide-encyclopedia/catholic-church
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/leckytoc.htm

All of these links detail different aspects of Genocide, Oppression, and other atrocities committed in the name of Christ. I condemn these things just as much as I condemn Stalin or Hitler, and the fact that any of it exists shows that there are bad people willing to abuse ideas and beliefs to their own ends on either side of any argument. Don't judge a group by a few select individuals, would you like me to judge you based on the actions of Fred Phelps?

 

[Split Rock]

guess we are down to bold font cut and paste. nothing left in this thread

Not quite, Hespera.... there is still one thing left for me to do. That one thing is for me to, once again, post my very own Creation Scientist Quote Mine! This time in BOLD font!!! Yeah!!

Here, Creationist Icon, the Hydraulic Engineer Henry Morris admits that a 6,000 year old universe is absurd :

“If the stars were made on the fourth day, and if the days of creation were literal days, then the stars must be several thousand years old. How, then, can many of the stars be millions or billions of light years distant since it would take correspondingly millions or billions of years for their light to reach the earth?”
-Henry Morris (1972) The Remarkable Birth of Planet Earth, p 61-62


Here he admits that evolution is a Law of Nature:

“Continuous evolution is a universal law of nature…”
-Henry Morris (1967) Evolution and the Modern Christian. p.34


Here he admits that index fossils are an accurate way to determine the age of rocks:

“That is, since evolution always proceeds in the same way all over the world at the same time, index fossils representing a given age … constitute infallible indicators of the geological age in which they are found. This makes good sense…”
-Henry Morris (1977) ICR Impact Series, no. 48.


Here he admits that theistic evolution is a perfectly fine belief:

“People can believe in theistic evolution (or progressive creation) and still believe in the Bible. They feel that the evolutionary ages of geology can … be accommodated in Genesis, by means (usually) of the ’local flood’ interpretation of the Noachian Deluge and the ‘day/age’ interpretataion of God’s week of creation.”
-Henry Morris (1980) Acts & Facts, March issue cover letter


Here Creationist Robert Ginskey admits to the fundamental flaws with a 6,000 year old earth:

“The fact is, fundamentalists face a real problem in trying to squeeze dinosaurs into 6,000 years of earth history. The facts just don’t allow it, even when Noah’s Flood is invoked as an explanation.”
-Robert Ginskey (1977) The Plain Truth , May, p 30-31


Here Creationist Geologist/Paleontologist Kurt Wise admits the truth about transitional fossils:

“It’s a pain in the neck. It fits the evolutionary predictions quite well.” (discussing a fossil sequence showing reptile to mammal evolution)
-Kurt Wise (2007) The New York Times Magazine, Nov 25, p34.


Here, Intelligent Design Icon and Lawyer Philip Johnson admits that science is the only reliable path to knowledge:

“Science, which studies only the natural, is our only reliable path to knowledge.”
-Philip Johnson (1995) Reason in the Balance, p 40.


Here Old Earth Creationist and Astronomer Hugh Ross talks about the limited usefullness of religion:

“A mechanical chain of events determines everything. Morality and religion may be temporarily useful but are ultimately irrelevant.”
-Hugh Ross (1993) The Creator and the Cosmos


Here I.D Icon Philip Johnson admits that evolution does not equate with atheism:

“The blind watchmaker thesis makes it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist by supplying the necessary creation story. It does not make it obligatory to be an atheist, because one can imagine a Creator who works through natural selection.”
-Philip Johnson (1995) Reason in the Balance, p 77


Here Creationist Geologist Andrew Snelling admits that granites taking millions of years to form:

“Especially the huge masses of granites outcropping in the Yosemite area, must surely have taken millions of years.”
-Andrew A. Snelling (2008) Rapid Melting of Source Rocks, and Rapid Magma Intrusions and Cooling, Answers Research Journal, 1: 11-25


Here Creationist Icon Kent “Dr. Dino” Hovind admits that both deep time and evolution are true:

"The Earth is billions of years old. The geologic column is the way to interpret it, and Charles Darwin's evolution is right."
-Kent Hovind (1996) Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution, Chapter 4

 

[Christian Soldier]

"At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace, the savage races throughout the world.

At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla."

Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man

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[Split Rock]

/thread.

 

[Christian Soldier]

"No rational man, cognizant of the facts, believes that the average negro is the equal, still less the superior, of the white man. And if this be true, it is simply incredible that, when all his disabilities are removed, and our prognathous relative has a fair field and no favor, as well as no oppressor, he will be able to compete successfully with his bigger-brained and smaller-jawed rival, in a contest which is to be carried on by thoughts and not by bites. The highest places in the hierarchy of civilization will assuredly not be within the reach of our dusky cousins"

Thomas Huxley; Lay Sermons, Addresses, and Reviews

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[Christian Soldier]

"The big chests, the massive brains, the vigorous muscles and stout frames, of the best men will carry the day, whenever it is worth their while to contest the prizes of life with the best women. And the hardship of it is, that the very improvement of the women will lessen their chances.

Better mothers will bring forth better sons, and the impetus gained by the one sex will be transmitted, in the next generation, to the other. The most Darwinian of theorists will not venture to propound the doctrine, that the physical disabilities under which women have hitherto laboured, in the struggle for existence with men, are likely to be removed by even the most skilfully conducted process of educational selection."

--Thomas Huxley (1865)

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[BananaSlug]

Yeah, yeah, we all know people will use scientific concepts to justify their own twisted ideals. You have not said anything about evolution, just the misinformed ideals that some people have based around evolution. Do you also question atomic theory because its application destroyed Hiroshima? Do you also question germ theory of disease because some people gave smallpox blankets to natives? Are there any other scientific theories you disagree with because of some peoples application of said theories?

 

[Hespera]

I believe the smallpox blankets story is just a legend isnt it?

i mean, it would not be necessary anyway. Once the first germ hit the new world, it was going to spread throughout the continent.

That isnt the point anyway. I get the impression our poster things that "evolution' is the work of the devil and anyone subscribing to it is either evil, or duped by evil and prone to devilish works as a result.

Its a christian conceit that it really has anything to do with their religion. Kind of like if some native tribe were offended by calculus and thought it was all about spoiling their religion.


Math and science would continue if there was no Christain religion, or native tribe either one.

 

[BananaSlug]

It may not be true but there are many other events that have happened that are similar. The point was that just because some people do horrible things with scientific applications does not mean that area of science is "evil." It's like saying that gravitational theory is evil because planes fall out of the sky.

 

[Hespera]

Gravity is not evil. STUDYING gravity tho....