Creationism in Kansas

[KSUCE03]

So you know, I have lived in Kansas all of my young life.

Our Board of Education has seen fit in the past to decrease the importance of evolutionary theory as a part of state science standards. The debate has gone back and forth for several years now. The science standards change as often as the board's makeup does.

What's interesting to me is that many Kansans feel we should drop all this and do what everyone else is doing so that we can fit in and others won't laugh at us.

My first question is this, do any of you outside of Kansas even know that this is going on here? If so, please include where you are.

Second, is it so bad to not be normal? "Normal" people don't have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to save them. "Normal" people, in America anyway, spend more than they can afford to.....etc. Should fitting in and being normal ever motivate our actions?

 

[chaoschristian]

I have been following this debate as closely as I can. It is of particuarl intererst to me since I live only about half an hour from Dover, PA - which you may know is also a recent site of the crevo debate.

I think 'normal' in this case represents the public's desire to:

1. Normalize political activity in Kansas, so that this issue isn't at center stage. Without wanting to start a political debate here, I think it is safe to say that Kansas, as with most if not all states, is experiencing tremendous economic pressure to do more with less, including paying for increasingly more expensive federally mandated programs. Just as in Dover, where the voters discarded the old school boards in favor of a new one, the primary driving issue was not the crevo debate, but the fact that the old board was perceived as not paying enough attention to economic concerns and then on top of that taking a huge political risk that still may end up costing the school district millions of dollars.

2. Normal in the sense that I think most Americans are concerned about the performance of their kids in school and whether or not we are producing a generation of students who are not competetive on the same level as other nations in the world market.

I agree that it is not normal to believe in God and have faith in Jesus. Just the same, I doubt most average Americans really put that great an emphasis on this within the context of schooling, but are more concerned with the questions, "Will my kid do well in school, get into a decent college and/or get a good job?" and "Can I afford to pay my school taxes, and why the **** are they so high anyway?"

So you know, I have lived in Kansas all of my young life.

Our Board of Education has seen fit in the past to decrease the importance of evolutionary theory as a part of state science standards. The debate has gone back and forth for several years now. The science standards change as often as the board's makeup does.

What's interesting to me is that many Kansans feel we should drop all this and do what everyone else is doing so that we can fit in and others won't laugh at us.

My first question is this, do any of you outside of Kansas even know that this is going on here? If so, please include where you are.

Second, is it so bad to not be normal? "Normal" people don't have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to save them. "Normal" people, in America anyway, spend more than they can afford to.....etc. Should fitting in and being normal ever motivate our actions?

 

[vossler]

Welcome to Origins KSUCE03.

What's interesting to me is that many Kansans feel we should drop all this and do what everyone else is doing so that we can fit in and others won't laugh at us.

My first question is this, do any of you outside of Kansas even know that this is going on here? If so, please include where you are.

Without a doubt, I've been following what's been going on there for the past couple of years. BTW, I'm in Texas.

Second, is it so bad to not be normal? "Normal" people don't have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to save them. "Normal" people, in America anyway, spend more than they can afford to.....etc. Should fitting in and being normal ever motivate our actions?

I think you already know the answer to that question. We are not called to be like the world because we are not of this world. 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 states:

"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, so that no one may boast before him."

We are the lowly and despised called to nullify the strong.

So don't be surprised when the world reacts in anger.

1 John 3:13

"Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you."

1 Corinthians 3:18-20 goes on to say:

"Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"; and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

We are not to deceive ourselves but the standards of today. We are to become fools. I suppose in some minds that can be considered normal.

Then there's the always stinging James 4:4

"You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."

All of which leads to one of my favorite passages Romans 12: 1-3

"Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you."

So we're not to conform to this world but to renew our minds. How do we do that? By studying God's Word through prayer and meditation to find out his will. Fortunately we have the Holy Spirit to assist us and God's wonderful grace to lift us when we fall.

 

[Mark2010]

If they teach you that the earth is flat, do not believe them. It's only flat in Kansas. (Well, OK, maybe a few acres in Nebraska, too.)

 

[Willtor]

So you know, I have lived in Kansas all of my young life.

Our Board of Education has seen fit in the past to decrease the importance of evolutionary theory as a part of state science standards. The debate has gone back and forth for several years now. The science standards change as often as the board's makeup does.

What's interesting to me is that many Kansans feel we should drop all this and do what everyone else is doing so that we can fit in and others won't laugh at us.

My first question is this, do any of you outside of Kansas even know that this is going on here? If so, please include where you are.

Second, is it so bad to not be normal? "Normal" people don't have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to save them. "Normal" people, in America anyway, spend more than they can afford to.....etc. Should fitting in and being normal ever motivate our actions?

It would be fair to say that I am aware of the ongoing debate. But I have not kept myself apprised of the particulars. I'm in Rochester, NY, by the way (though, I was aware of it when I was still living at home in Boston, MA).

I think the question of the teaching of Evolution boils down to whether it fits into the category of Religion or Science. I'm not interested in turning this thread into a debate of such things. But I think if it can be established within the minds of the policy-makers that it is a Science, they have no choice but to include it in the curriculum. If they decide it is not a Science, but is part of Religion, they have no choice but to exclude it. The same goes for young-Earth Creation.

As for "fitting in" I don't think that's a good reason, in and of itself, to do anything.

 

[Dannager]

I'm in Orange County, California, and I keep up on the issues regarding this topic in Kansas. The issue here isn't what is "normal" and what isn't; the issue is what is correct. But perhaps it would first help to bring up the particular issue (there are a few) that you feel Kansas is facing with regards to this debate.

 

[Deamiter]

I read an article somewhere that compared the scientific education standards of all the states. It gave them grades and ranked them. There were some comments about evolution, but there were also very specific reasons given for why other states failed -- usually because they either failed to standardize a good definition of science, or they made science ambiguous -- something like "just a theory" claims totally ignoring that a scientific theory is the most certain of all labels in science.

Anyway, Kansas was VERY low -- it might have gotten an F or F- for their standards. HOWEVER, they put in a special note in this case. The Kansas board of education apparently asked for the advice of a number of scientists and people who study science. They drafted an educational standard based on this advice. If that standard had been implimented, Kansas would have received an A+ -- first or second best in the NATION!

But then they removed all mention of evolution, and redefined "science" so it wasn't restricted to natural, repeatable explanations. They basically took a top-notch standard and simply cut out anything that might indicate that science must be observable and repeatable.

 

[KSUCE03]

When I was in school (in Kansas) scientific method was stressed in Jr. High School and High School. It has always been my view that evolutionary theory does not follow the scientific method and is thereby the type of scientific method you're talking about.

But again, I'm not trying to make this thread an origins debate. I'm really more interested in what people outside of Kansas know about what's going on here, or even what their perceptions are about what is happening. Of course, people reading an "Origins Theology" forum probably aren't a representative population in the matter.

 

[Deamiter]

When I was in school (in Kansas) scientific method was stressed in Jr. High School and High School. It has always been my view that evolutionary theory does not follow the scientific method and is thereby the type of scientific method you're talking about.

But again, I'm not trying to make this thread an origins debate. I'm really more interested in what people outside of Kansas know about what's going on here, or even what their perceptions are about what is happening. Of course, people reading an "Origins Theology" forum probably aren't a representative population in the matter.

Actually that sounds like a VERY good example of how the Kansas education standards have failed to serve the students. And it's not just Kansas -- there are a number of states that teach a very good definition of science, but even with a good foundation of science in general, these states fail to teach HOW evolution (and geology and astronomy) come to the conclusions of old age BY using the scientific method.

You're taught the scientific method, then you're taught how many areas of science follow the scientific method. However, when you get to biology, they teach what a cell is made of, and the basics of genetics, but they eliminate any mention of evolution or how the conclusions ARE based on the scientific method.

Given that I've heard these criticisms quite a few times before, and given that you report exactly the same issue, it seems that there IS a problem with the education in Kansas.

They teach the basics of science, and they teach some of biology, but because the teachers and parents disagree with evolution for religious reasons, they leave out anything that might lead you to believe that evolutionary conclusions WERE based on the scientific method.

Since you never even TRY to get to the published papers in high school (as they're way too advanced for high school students to understand) you just accept that since you weren't taught the scientific basis to evolution, it must not exist.

 

[The Lady Kate]

But then they removed all mention of evolution, and redefined "science" so it wasn't restricted to natural, repeatable explanations. They basically took a top-notch standard and simply cut out anything that might indicate that science must be observable and repeatable.

Sounds like another sacrifice at the altar of religious correctness...

 

[shernren]

Second, is it so bad to not be normal? "Normal" people don't have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ to save them. "Normal" people, in America anyway, spend more than they can afford to.....etc. Should fitting in and being normal ever motivate our actions?

This is something I've really been thinking about as well. Yes, the Bible does contain injunctions and warnings that we will be different and that we will be ostracised for being different. And I wonder: why is it that we need to be different from the world anyway?

(Don't worry. It's just a rhetorical question - I will arrive at the right answer. )

The biggest motivation that the Bible provides for being different is grounded in Jesus' being different. And yet I don't find that Jesus was different "for the sake of being different" per se. He was actually rather popular among the people for healing and teaching (though any popularity He had certainly vanished on Good Friday). The way I see people telling me I should "live radically", be a "counter-cultural Christian", etc. ... makes me feel like I'm in a Taliban training camp at times

As I consider it, this is what I come to:

We are called to be different from the world only as a consequence of our call to follow Jesus. We are only to be different from the world so far as the world as different from Jesus.

This is, of course, a guarded answer that requires deep thought and meditation to obtain real "tips for living". There is no "7 steps to being different from the world!" as far as I know. No easy answers. Is the world being different from Jesus in its stance to abortion? homosexuality? advanced life sciences? .... evolution?

This ties in with the OT concept of holiness (I say OT because it somehow seems to be "assumed" in the NT and therefore less prominently described). Holiness is a separation to God. Not a separation "for creationism", or a separation "for pro-lifeism", or ... good as these things may be (or not ) they are not the main aim of holiness. The question of holy living is not "how should I live?" but "why do I live?" and the how must stem from the why. To do things the other way around is legalism, pure and simple.

So in response ... what is the point of being abnormal? Would Jesus allow evolution to be taught? I don't presume to speak for Jesus, but to the best of my knowledge I would think that my answer is "yes" ...

 

[Willtor]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to shernren again.

 

[Dracil]

Yes, we are fully aware of the circus that went on in Kansas.

Such as prominent IDists admitting their definition of "science" would also include Astrology.