Creation subjected to futility until...?

[food4thought]

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
(Romans 8:19-21 NASB)

When will the creation be set free from it's bondage to corruption? During the Millennial Kingdom, or not until the new heavens and new earth?

Thanks in advance;
Michael

 

[John Hyperspace]

As I'm lead, Paul gives the order:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1. Christ, the firstfruits: happened at the first advent

2. They that are His at His coming: happens at the second advent. Here the manifested sons of God are given reign over the world (Revelation 2:26, Revelation 20:4) and they begin the age of teaching without interference of deception (Revelation 20:2-3). Death (the spiritually dead in lack of knowledge of God) and judgement/condemnation is still present in them outside of the presence of Christ. The sons of God by teaching the nations eradicate death and judgment over the course of the age.

3. Then comes the end: happens at the close of the millennial age(which itself closes the "age of ages"). All things being subdued to Christ (1 Corinthians 15:25), and reconciled to God (Colossians 1:20), the millennial reign comes to a close, and all things are in harmony and unity in truth and love under God. The former things have passed away; death is no more.

Revelation 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

 

[food4thought]

As I'm lead, Paul gives the order:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1. Christ, the firstfruits: happened at the first advent

2. They that are His at His coming: happens at the second advent. Here the manifested sons of God are given reign over the world (Revelation 2:26, Revelation 20:4) and they begin the age of teaching without interference of deception (Revelation 20:2-3). Death (the spiritually dead in lack of knowledge of God) and judgement/condemnation is still present in them outside of the presence of Christ. The sons of God by teaching the nations eradicate death and judgment over the course of the age.

3. Then comes the end: happens at the close of the millennial age(which itself closes the "age of ages"). All things being subdued to Christ (1 Corinthians 15:25), and reconciled to God (Colossians 1:20), the millennial reign comes to a close, and all things are in harmony and unity in truth and love under God. The former things have passed away; death is no more.

Revelation 21:4-5 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Thank you for reply. Your post deals more directly with the problem of death than it does with the creation's bondage to corruption. Granted, we are a part of the creation, so creation won't be completely free until the new heavens and the new earth. I was wondering, though, because it seems that there will be at least a partial lifting of the curse during the Millennial Kingdom, because Isaiah speaks of it as a time when predatory animals are no longer predatory, and human life is extended as it was before the flood, and sounds in some passages as if the curse of the ground will be lifted as well. I also doubt there will be tectonic activity (like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions) during the Kingdom, but I could be wrong on that.

So, I guess I am wondering if the passage I quoted from Romans has it's fulfillment only in the new heavens and new earth, or if it could also be applied, at least in part, to the Millennium?

Thanks again;
Michael

 

[John Hyperspace]

Thank you for reply. Your post deals more directly with the problem of death than it does with the creation's bondage to corruption.

I believe these are inextricably linked. Hebrews 2:15. But moreover we need to understand as Paul is writing. These words "bondage to corruption" and "glorious liberty" are meaning "law"(bondage/corruption) and "grace"(liberty):

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

The reason the creation is subject to corruption is because of us. If you read the old testament you'll find that the inhabitants of the land cause the land to be corrupted, and the land "cries out" to God for judgment of "oppression": it is the inhabitants that subject the land to corruption (not willingly):

Leviticus 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

I was wondering, though, because it seems that there will be at least a partial lifting of the curse during the Millennial Kingdom, because Isaiah speaks of it as a time when predatory animals are no longer predatory, and human life is extended as it was before the flood, and sounds in some passages as if the curse of the ground will be lifted as well. I also doubt there will be tectonic activity (like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions) during the Kingdom, but I could be wrong on that.

True but the spiritual component is still active: there is still spiritually dead people, still spiritual corruption in the bondage to law: death is still active and is not destroyed until the "lake of fire" consumes everything "corrupt": then all things being reconciled, the former things pass away. It's after that Revelation 22:3

So, I guess I am wondering if the passage I quoted from Romans has it's fulfillment only in the new heavens and new earth, or if it could also be applied, at least in part, to the Millennium?

Sure; the beginning of the millennium reign is the beginning of the restoration, so from start to finish, everything is being reconciled: so it's like, fire slowly purging the system of the curse of bondage to corruption into liberty.

 

[food4thought]

I believe these are inextricably linked. Hebrews 2:15. But moreover we need to understand as Paul is writing. These words "bondage to corruption" and "glorious liberty" are meaning "law"(bondage/corruption) and "grace"(liberty):

Galatians 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

I am unsure how the ideas of "law" and "grace" can be applied to nature.

The reason the creation is subject to corruption is because of us. If you read the old testament you'll find that the inhabitants of the land cause the land to be corrupted, and the land "cries out" to God for judgment of "oppression": it is the inhabitants that subject the land to corruption (not willingly):

Leviticus 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

Totally agree with you here.

True but the spiritual component is still active: there is still spiritually dead people, still spiritual corruption in the bondage to law: death is still active and is not destroyed until the "lake of fire" consumes everything "corrupt": then all things being reconciled, the former things pass away. It's after that Revelation 22:3

Following and agreeing.

Sure; the beginning of the millennium reign is the beginning of the restoration, so from start to finish, everything is being reconciled: so it's like, fire slowly purging the system of the curse of bondage to corruption into liberty.

OK. So we agree for the most part.

Going back to your first point, could you elaborate on how grace and law apply to nature, because that is what the passage in Romans 8 is focused on... it is clearly speaking of nature, IMO, not people or nations.

 

[John Hyperspace]

I am unsure how the ideas of "law" and "grace" can be applied to nature.

Going back to your first point, could you elaborate on how grace and law apply to nature, because that is what the passage in Romans 8 is focused on... it is clearly speaking of nature, IMO, not people or nations.

I can't say anything about the exact mechanisms; but in some way we are influencing the creation by our own state of mind and heart. If these are in bondage to corruption, it subjects the creation to that in a physical way; but unwillingly. It has something to do with dominion; and as long as our minds and hearts are in bondage to corruption, it causes creation to be likewise. Think of the microcosm of our natural body; because of the state of our mind and heart it affects our natural bodies so that they are also corrupt and dying; because of "sin in the flesh": and in some way this is also affecting nature. I could go through the old testament and cite a bunch of verses where we see the land itself being affected by the state of them that are dwelling in the land: their corruption is causing its corruption, until it cries out to God for help.

So we are, by law and grace, in a struggle to move from corruption under the law into incorruption under grace. As long as we people are in this struggle of mind and heart, it is causing the creation to be subjected to them same condition, being manifested naturally. As if our spiritual condition is manifesting in nature itself. So when we are "liberated from bondage" in spirit, the creation is also liberated through our liberation. Thus the creation is "eagerly awaiting" the manifestation of the sons of God, because they are the ones who liberate the minds of them in bondage to corruption, into the "glorious liberty" of grace.

Imagine that we are the spirit and "mind" and the creation is the natural body. When the mind is liberated, the liberation of the body accompanies. As long as there is corruption of mind and heart in bondage to the law, there will be corruption of the natural course as well. So when men are all in Christ (the "glorious liberty") then the creation will also be sharing that same state.

 

[food4thought]

I can't say anything about the exact mechanisms; but in some way we are influencing the creation by our own state of mind and heart. If these are in bondage to corruption, it subjects the creation to that in a physical way; but unwillingly. It has something to do with dominion; and as long as our minds and hearts are in bondage to corruption, it causes creation to be likewise. Think of the microcosm of our natural body; because of the state of our mind and heart it affects our natural bodies so that they are also corrupt and dying; because of "sin in the flesh": and in some way this is also affecting nature. I could go through the old testament and cite a bunch of verses where we see the land itself being affected by the state of them that are dwelling in the land: their corruption is causing its corruption, until it cries out to God for help.

Not sure if I can agree with that bolded part... it seems to imply that if we don't sin, then our bodies would never die. I always thought of it the other way around, that our sinful flesh corrupts our renewed hearts and minds, and Paul seems to agree (Romans 7-8). Don't get me wrong, I am not promoting the idea that matter is evil and spirit is good (a form of Gnosticism), I am saying that before we become born again our mind, soul, and body are all corrupted by sin. Once born again, our souls are cleansed by the blood of Christ and ruled by the Spirit, our minds are in process of being renewed, but our bodies are still corrupted by sin until the time we get our eternal bodies at the resurrection.

So we are, by law and grace, in a struggle to move from corruption under the law into incorruption under grace. As long as we people are in this struggle of mind and heart, it is causing the creation to be subjected to them same condition, being manifested naturally. As if our spiritual condition is manifesting in nature itself. So when we are "liberated from bondage" in spirit, the creation is also liberated through our liberation. Thus the creation is "eagerly awaiting" the manifestation of the sons of God, because they are the ones who liberate the minds of them in bondage to corruption, into the "glorious liberty" of grace.

This is interesting to me, and I don't think one has to accept the idea of the soul corrupting the flesh in order to see validity in it.

Imagine that we are the spirit and "mind" and the creation is the natural body. When the mind is liberated, the liberation of the body accompanies. As long as there is corruption of mind and heart in bondage to the law, there will be corruption of the natural course as well. So when men are all in Christ (the "glorious liberty") then the creation will also be sharing that same state.

Not happy with the analogy for the reasons stated above, but I see the point.

 

[John Hyperspace]

If you didn't sin you couldn't die, because death is of the curse of the law: by which sin appears "working death": Romans 7:13: but in the spirit we are freed by grace into the "glorious liberty" Romans 8:2. Death entered through sin (Romans 5:12). While we sin we die, and it's not possible to be without sin under the law, because no one can "continue" in "all the words" (Galatians 3:10) so the result is corruption and death, through the power of the law (1 Corinthians 15:56); because the law has the power of death to which men are in bondage because of sin. See corruption and death come through the law, and being under law is what causes the curse, because of sin. So the ground was cursed because of Adam's sin, in the law.

 

[food4thought]

If you didn't sin you couldn't die, because death is of the curse of the law: by which sin appears "working death": Romans 7:13: but in the spirit we are freed by grace into the "glorious liberty" Romans 8:2. Death entered through sin (Romans 5:12). While we sin we die, and it's not possible to be without sin under the law, because no one can "continue" in "all the words" (Galatians 3:10) so the result is corruption and death, through the power of the law (1 Corinthians 15:56); because the law has the power of death to which men are in bondage because of sin. See corruption and death come through the law, and being under law is what causes the curse, because of sin. So the ground was cursed because of Adam's sin, in the law.

The Law has nothing to do with the original curse of Genesis 3. The Law brings it's own curse:

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT CONTINUE IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM." (Galatians 3:10 NKJV)

Also, it is Satan who holds the power of death (Hebrews 2:14), the law brings death because of our inability to live up to it.

I don't think we are going to agree on this point, but let's agree to disagree agreeably.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

When will the creation be set free from it's bondage to corruption? During the Millennial Kingdom, or not until the new heavens and new earth?

I don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture before a millennial reign.

I will say that it should be clear from verse 23 that the text is referring to the next age. I used to wonder about Luke 21:28 when it talks about our redemption occurring when Jesus returned. I always thought of our redemption in a spiritual sense that came when Jesus died for us, as in Romans 3:24. Luke 21:28 did not make sense until I read Romans 8:23 and realized that there is a second redemption, a physical one of our bodies.

 

[food4thought]

I don't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture before a millennial reign.

I respectfully disagree.

I will say that it should be clear from verse 23 that the text is referring to the next age. I used to wonder about Luke 21:28 when it talks about our redemption occurring when Jesus returned. I always thought of our redemption in a spiritual sense that came when Jesus died for us, as in Romans 3:24. Luke 21:28 did not make sense until I read Romans 8:23 and realized that there is a second redemption, a physical one of our bodies.

I believe those who are raptured will be given glorified bodies and will rule and reign (along with the martyrs from the tribulation) in the Millennial Kingdom. The truth of us receiving eternal incorruptible bodies is a marvelous glorious truth, though, regardless of the exact timing of the event, isn't it?

God bless;
Michael