Creation & Eden-verse by verse

[IisJustMe]

wow.
apparently the same motivation that denies the value of modern science in things such as radioactive dating or TofE also extends to academic or scholarly studies of the Scriptures. certainly there is a wide chasm in the division of conservative and liberal Biblical studies, but i would hazard a prediction that there doesn't even exist a conservative Biblical scholar who would make such a statement, with such certainty in the face of enormous evidence to the contrary.

This only shows that you give little credence to any but the higher critics, as the viewpoint of the Bible being the inerrant verbal plenary inspiration of God most assuredly makes such statements as I did, with certainty. The rest of your post is completely irrelevant, focusing as it does on me personally as opposed to actually providing evidence for your viewpoint.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

being the inerrant verbal plenary inspiration of God most assuredly makes such statements as I did, with certainty.


fine. share 1 theologian who makes the statement that the Torah was certainly written in 1408BC?

do you even know what the "normal" ranges of the conservative and liberal dating of the Torah or the Tanakh is?


The rest of your post is completely irrelevant, focusing as it does on me personally as opposed to actually providing evidence for your viewpoint.

it is not directed at you personally, but all those who propose to speak "ex cathedra" with such great certainty while at the same time appearing to be ignorant of the literature of what other people have discovered or thought about those issues.


This only shows that you give little credence to any but the higher critics,

i am tempted to just reply BS. you don't know anything about me.

just for the record, i am very opposed to higher criticism and have written several long essays on the topic.


btw
do you realize that the word plenary has done a 180 turnabout in meaning over the last 150 years? i find it curious that it has sunk such deep roots in the conservative churches given it's origin and early usage.



post edit

here is another 'scholar' with exact dates for the books of the Torah

The Old Testament, which has 39 books, consists of: Genesis, written in 1514 BC. Exodus and Leviticus were written in 1512 BC. Numbers and Deuteronomy were written in 1473 BC. These books were written by Moses in the wilderness at Sinai.

from: http://www.angdatingdaan.org/segments/seg_facts_3.htm

how do i adjudicate between the above mentioned 1408BC and his 1514BC?

 

[IisJustMe]

fine. share 1 theologian who makes the statement that the Torah was certainly written in 1408BC? ...
do you even know what the "normal" ranges of the conservative and liberal dating of the Torah or the Tanakh is?

I specifically said "Pentateuch" not Torah, which has a number of definitions from being Moses' writings to the entire Old Testament. Your use of "Tanakh" indicates you want to put words in my mouth by implying I am claiming authorship of the entire Hebrew Bible rests with Moses in 1408 BC, and you know full well that's not what I said, but you would mislead others into thinking that is what I said because they won't read my post, just yours.

it is not directed at you personally, but all those who propose to speak "ex cathedra" with such great certainty while at the same time appearing to be ignorant of the literature of what other people have discovered or thought about those issues.

Because I do not give credence to such literature does mean I am unaware of it. It is as I said, I do not give credence to it. I'm sure you believe the JEDP or perhaps even the JEDP + R theory, or at least have given some consideration to it. After considering it, I rejected it. Simple as that. The only part of the Pentateuch Moses didn't write is the end of Deuteronomy after he died.

You should be fully aware of the widely varying dates one can find among scholars for the dates of the Pentateuch. You have posted a link purporting 1514 BC, which is highly unlikely given that nearly every scholar of a conservative literal inclination puts the exodus around 1450 BC. Many seminaries contend a biblical timeline can be built from Scripture that indicates it was 1448. I happen to be a product of one of those. Genesis may have been written anytime in the ensuing 40 years, but the last four books carry the flavor of a preparation for the entering into the land, an effort by Moses to record all that has happened, and all that God has promised, a final word of warning, encouragement and blessing from the great leader, who knew he was not entering into the land with his people. Given the events of the 40 years, with Moses acting as Chief Justice, so to speak, it is highly unlikely he took the time to record the words we now read today until he knew his time on earth was drawing to a close. It is a perspective of history, spiritual guidance, and inspiration that we read, that he prepared for Israel before they crossed the Jordan.

How do you adjudicate between 1514 BC or 1408 BC? I could care less. For me, it is obvious. What you conclude is up to you. Both of us could be wrong. It really isn't significant to our salvation, it only serves as yet another point of disagreement Satan can use to separate brothers and sisters in Christ -- if we let him.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

I'm sure you believe the JEDP or perhaps even the JEDP + R theory, or at least have given some consideration to it.

and you would be just as certainly wrong. i have an excellent secular education in Hebrew literature and rejected the documentary interpretation 25 years ago, and went to a conservative seminary to learn the right way.

You have posted a link purporting 1514 BC, which is highly unlikely given that nearly every scholar of a conservative literal inclination puts the exodus around 1450 BC. Many seminaries contend a biblical timeline can be built from Scripture that indicates it was 1448. I happen to be a product of one of those. Genesis may have been written anytime in the ensuing 40 years,

where can i go to read scholars that fix dates so specifically?

 

[IisJustMe]

where can i go to read scholars that fix dates so specifically?

Any biblical scholar I've ever known, at least those of a conservative bent, know that a Bible timeline can be established simply by following the geneologies. Thus "abiblestudy.com" posts a timeline endorsed by many conservative schoolars that sets a date 1447 BC for the exodus from Egypt, while others are one year off one way or another. The latest legitimate date, as far as using the biblical timeline goes, is 1445, while the earliest would be 1448. True conservatives know there is a simple though time-consuming method of establishing the corresponding dates for BC and AD throughout the Bible, until you get to the Pauline and other apostolic epistles which provide fewer clues than the OT Books of History offer.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

Any biblical scholar I've ever known, at least those of a conservative bent, know that a Bible timeline can be established simply by following the geneologies.


BB.Warfield and Green showed this to be wrong over 100 years ago.

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/primeval_chronology.shtml

Warfield, more than any other single person, is responsible for the modern idea of inerrancy, you would be hard pressed to find a more knowledgable or conservative OT scholar.

the other important paper on the topic is Warfield's on the Antiquity of Man, however i was unable to find it online via google.

btw.
if you research the issue i believe you will find that conservative scholars will put the exodus anywhere from 1200-1700BC. I am unaware of a single scholar that i have read that claims strongly that the error in their dating is +- 2 years as has been posited here.

 

[wtopneuma]

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen001.html#1
(click on the "c"s beside each verse for the Hebrew text)

http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?word=01254&book=Gen&chapter=1&verse=1&page=1&exact=0&perlit=&bgcolor=FFFFFF&textcolor=000000&linkcolor=0000FF&vlinkcolor=A000A0&show_strongs=no&hr=&icon=

Strong's on bara.

Thank you for the web site.

 

[wtopneuma]

The word bara always refers to something God made, but it does not necessarily have the sense of creating from nothing.

In any case, all Christian creationists, including TEs, believe that all of creation was made by God, so creation ex nihilo is not in dispute. That God works and continues to create through what he has made should also not be in dispute.

bara' {baw-raw'}


bara' {baw-raw'}
TWOT ReferenceRoot WordTWOT - 278a primitive rootPart of SpeechvOutline of Biblical Usage
1) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
b) (Niphal) to be created
1) of heaven and earth
2) of birth
3) of something new
4) of miracles
c) (Piel)
1) to cut down
2) to cut out
2) to be fat a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

 

[wtopneuma]

bara' {baw-raw'}


bara' {baw-raw'}
TWOT ReferenceRoot WordTWOT - 278a primitive rootPart of SpeechvOutline of Biblical Usage
1) to create, shape, form
a) (Qal) to shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject)
1) of heaven and earth
2) of individual man
3) of new conditions and circumstances
4) of transformations
b) (Niphal) to be created
1) of heaven and earth
2) of birth
3) of something new
4) of miracles
c) (Piel)
1) to cut down
2) to cut out
2) to be fat a) (Hiphil) to make yourselves fat

Looks like some more study is needed here. Bara is the root word of several other words for create, if I correctly understand the definition.

 

[wtopneuma]

being the inerrant verbal plenary inspiration of God most assuredly makes such statements as I did, with certainty.


fine. share 1 theologian who makes the statement that the Torah was certainly written in 1408BC?

do you even know what the "normal" ranges of the conservative and liberal dating of the Torah or the Tanakh is?


The rest of your post is completely irrelevant, focusing as it does on me personally as opposed to actually providing evidence for your viewpoint.

it is not directed at you personally, but all those who propose to speak "ex cathedra" with such great certainty while at the same time appearing to be ignorant of the literature of what other people have discovered or thought about those issues.


This only shows that you give little credence to any but the higher critics,

i am tempted to just reply BS. you don't know anything about me.

just for the record, i am very opposed to higher criticism and have written several long essays on the topic.


btw
do you realize that the word plenary has done a 180 turnabout in meaning over the last 150 years? i find it curious that it has sunk such deep roots in the conservative churches given it's origin and early usage.



post edit

here is another 'scholar' with exact dates for the books of the Torah


from: http://www.angdatingdaan.org/segments/seg_facts_3.htm

how do i adjudicate between the above mentioned 1408BC and his 1514BC?

Jesus mentioned to the Jews that Moses gave you circumcision. The reason for circumcision is given only in Genesis 17, so Jesus had to be referring to moses compilation of the story. Evidence says Genesis was written in the sinai desert.

 

[Assyrian]

Jesus mentioned to the Jews that Moses gave you circumcision. The reason for circumcision is given only in Genesis 17, so Jesus had to be referring to moses compilation of the story. Evidence says Genesis was written in the sinai desert.

John 7:22 Moses gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man upon the sabbath.
Actually the verse seem to say the opposite. While Moses reiterated circumcision in the law, Jesus reminded the Jews that circumcision predated Moses and came from the time of Abraham.[/quibble]

 

[artybloke]

Evidence says Genesis was written in the sinai desert.

Evidence? What evidence? Photographs perhaps?

 

[IisJustMe]

John 7:22 Moses gave you circumcision ... and you circumcise a man upon the sabbath.
Actually the verse seem to say the opposite.

Sorry about removing your parenthetical statement, but it really doesn't apply. While circumcision had been a tradition in the past, it was codified by God through the Mosaic Law, which is why Jesus specifically said "Moses gave you circumcision ... "

 

[rmwilliamsll]

another thread here
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25427099&postcount=26

assures me that an Egyptian manuscript dating from the 17thC BC is an eyewitness to the events leading upto the Exodus.

so even in this small sampling of opinion there is two true YECist Christians proposing Exodus dates 300+ years apart.

see why a little uncertainty is a worthwhile practice?

 

[Assyrian]

Sorry about removing your parenthetical statement, but it really doesn't apply. While circumcision had been a tradition in the past, it was codified by God through the Mosaic Law, which is why Jesus specifically said "Moses gave you circumcision ... "

So you don't think it was Jesus who said the bit about circumcision actually coming from the patriarchs? Do you think John wrote in a correction where he thought Jesus got it wrong historically? Hmm.

 

[wtopneuma]

Evidence? What evidence? Photographs perhaps?

Circumcision was a part and sign of the Abrahamic covenant but Abraham wrote none of the Bible's Books. All the Pentateuch was written by Moses which are Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
This covenant was given by God to Abraham in Genesis 17.
Jesus gives credence to Moses as the author of Genesis as does Luke in Acts:15:1. And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved." Paul and Baranabas then go to the church in Jerusalem to clear that wrong thinking concerning salvation up, which they do successfully. Moses as the author and its writing in the Sinai desert is also supported by the huge majority of scholars who compile our Bible commentaries.
By the way, Truth is Truth whether it be literal or liberal.