Creation & Eden-verse by verse

[Melethiel]

Looks like it's time for good old Athanasius again:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

[/FONT]

 

[dad]

Looks like it's time for good old Athanasius again:

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Is that thing for real? I was born a catholic, went to Catholic school, but never heard that one.
"Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. "
??? I only got saved after meeting born again Christians, never even heard of salvation as a Catholic.

"Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
"
Baloney. Jesus saves. I thought this thing was a joke. What is it, some left over inquisitional era gem?

". For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. "
Hey, how did this hit on something good?

"And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved."
I am saved, and I assure you this is a load. Heaven is full of sinners, saved sinners. They did not get there by works, but simply believing in Jesus. Works are something that hopefully come as a result of this. Apparently less in some cases than others.

 

[Melethiel]

Note for those not familiar with the terminology used in Patristic writings - "catholic faith" as used in the Creeds is for all intents and purposes the same as "Christian faith", and is not referring to the Roman Catholic Church in the slightest.

 

[Melethiel]

What is it, some left over inquisitional era gem?

It is one of the Ecumenical Creeds confessing the doctrine of the Trinity against the Arian heresy, and was written ~500 AD.

 

[Willtor]

So? Never heard of it, what di I care about some homowhatsit doctrine?

I don't know how much you care about it, but I do know that you signed the Nicene Creed in order to post, here, which includes the doctrine of homoousis. This is translated (into English) as "one (being or essence)" in "one being with the Father" with respect to Jesus Christ.

 

[wtopneuma]

No, they don't.

Thank you for pointing that out. I had heard that incorrect bit from several sources so I never looked it up.

 

[wtopneuma]

God is indivisible. There are no "parts" to God. Whatever you want to think about wild crazy physics before and during the flood, this is an important theological point.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are God as three-in-one but all individually God as all have all of the Godly powers as they do together. They are three-in-one because they always agree on every action they take and do nothing that is not supported by the others. Jesus said more then once that He did nothing that was not of the Father. They are equal in power but each have a specific role. The Father plans, Jesus does the work, and the Holy Spirit watches over and maintains has been noted as some of the differences in roles. We cannot fully explain this but there are indications.

 

[wtopneuma]

The fall is recorded in the 3rd chapter of Genesis. There were two special trees in the Garden. The tree of life would have given Adam and Eve eternal life and the power of God to have resisted Satan's temptation. They never ate of this tree because they died. They were casted out of the garden to prevent them from eating of this tree after their spirits were sin tainted.
They fell to the temptation and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This is a true description of that tree. The good is not of God's goodness but as the world might perceive good. The only way they could have a knowledge of good and evil was to experience both good and evil. This is why we have suffering. It is the downside of having a knowledge of evil.
Why did God present them with this choice? God loves His creation. he loved Adam and Eve. God desires to have fellowship with man and for man to love Him. Love cannot be forced. It must be a voluntary choice to love God. There has to be an alternative for there to be a choice. Yes, God knew that they would fail but God already had planned, a way for man to get back in fellowship with God. This was through the promised Messiah which was given 1st in Genesis 3: 14-15; Seed is often in references to children or heirs in scripture. This one is prophesying Jesus as the one who would destroy Satan. Notice it mentions a head blow while the reference is to a heel blow on the Messiah. We can go to heaven because Jesus death on the Cross and His Resurrection defeated Satan. Many who believe this to be a myth believe Jesus as a great prophet but not God the Son because I have met and conversed with them. Many of those who still hold to Jesus as God but believe the garden account is a myth have difficulty knowing whether a scripture is true and not true so they have many struggles in their life as a Christian and tend to depend on their resources instead of God's. They miss much of the abundant life as a result.

 

[theFijian]

They usually aren't, but what if they have multiple spirits dwelling in them, multiple personalities?

God is a schizophrenic. Welcome to the wacky world of dad!

 

[Assyrian]

The fall is recorded in the 3rd chapter of Genesis. There were two special trees in the Garden. The tree of life would have given Adam and Eve eternal life and the power of God to have resisted Satan's temptation. They never ate of this tree because they died. They were casted out of the garden to prevent them from eating of this tree after their spirits were sin tainted.
They fell to the temptation and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This is a true description of that tree. The good is not of God's goodness but as the world might perceive good. The only way they could have a knowledge of good and evil was to experience both good and evil. This is why we have suffering. It is the downside of having a knowledge of evil.
Why did God present them with this choice? God loves His creation. he loved Adam and Eve. God desires to have fellowship with man and for man to love Him. Love cannot be forced. It must be a voluntary choice to love God. There has to be an alternative for there to be a choice. Yes, God knew that they would fail but God already had planned, a way for man to get back in fellowship with God. This was through the promised Messiah which was given 1st in Genesis 3: 14-15; Seed is often in references to children or heirs in scripture. This one is prophesying Jesus as the one who would destroy Satan. Notice it mentions a head blow while the reference is to a heel blow on the Messiah. We can go to heaven because Jesus death on the Cross and His Resurrection defeated Satan. Many who believe this to be a myth believe Jesus as a great prophet but not God the Son because I have met and conversed with them. Many of those who still hold to Jesus as God but believe the garden account is a myth have difficulty knowing whether a scripture is true and not true so they have many struggles in their life as a Christian and tend to depend on their resources instead of God's. They miss much of the abundant life as a result.

Genesis 3 never mentions Satan. According to the story, it was a snake that tempted Eve, and the promised redeemer was going to crush that snake's head. You may not realise it wtopneuma, but you are interpreting the story of the fall figuratively, and quite rightly too. If you really read it literally, then Jesus never did crush a snake's head.

But if the snake was not really a snake, then the truth of the story does not depend on it being literal.

 

[wtopneuma]

Genesis 3 never mentions Satan. According to the story, it was a snake that tempted Eve, and the promised redeemer was going to crush that snake's head. You may not realise it wtopneuma, but you are interpreting the story of the fall figuratively, and quite rightly too. If you really read it literally, then Jesus never did crush a snake's head.

But if the snake was not really a snake, then the truth of the story does not depend on it being literal.

Study this some more. The term used was serpent, not snake. If you want to argue with a long list of commentators that this is not referring to Satan, be my guest. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

 

[wtopneuma]

Adam and Eve had children. Cain, the 1st born was a farmer. Abel tended sheep. Both bought offerings of worship to the Lord. Scripture indicates that Cain bought a token, half-hearted offering. Abel bought the best of his flock. These were offerings of worship, not sacrificial. God rejected Cain's half-hearted offering but fully accepted Abel's cheerful giving. Cain murdered his brother Abel and received a judgement from God as told in Genesis 4.
Adam could not pass on to his children what he lost when he sinned. Cain and Abel both were born with sin contaminated spirits. Abel found redeemption as a true worshipper of God but Cain lived in rebellion to God. God would visit Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening before their sin. This indicates along with Jesus asking Peter three times, :"Lovest thou me," God having a desire to fellowship with mankind. Any person who has not received Christ as their Savior is incomplete. Man was not created to function well apart from fellowship with God. This is indicated by how Christians can fully accomplish any tasks God wants even if they have no capability within their own resources. God intends man to function out of His resources, not our own. A non-christian might be somewhat compared to a car with a spark plug wire missing. it functions but not very well. The same applies to a Christian who attempts to do God's work out of their own resources instead of God's. This happened to King David. He killed Goliath with God's strength then years later, he took his eyes off the Lord and was guilty of adultery and murder. We are not suppose to minister for God. We are suppose to be channels for God to do His ministry through us.Possibly, they who think parts of the Bible are myth are likely to depend on their own resources instead of God's. My personal liberal acquainteces were sincere in their beliefs but they annalized scripture from logical perspectives instead of recognizing that God is not like man and man is not like God. This is taught twice in the Book of Job.

 

[Mallon]

Those who think parts of the Bible are myths are likely to depend on their own resources instead of God's for they call myth parts of the Bible because they think it not posible within man's perspective instead of God's power and understanding or for some other reason.

I, for one, disagree. We are clearly warned in the New Testament to beware the myths of the ancient Hewbrews and to rebuke them accordingly:

For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group. They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach—and that for the sake of dishonest gain. Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.

 

[wtopneuma]

Study this some more. The term used was serpent, not snake. If you want to argue with a long list of commentators that this is not referring to Satan, be my guest. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

Literal does not bar the use of metaphors and refers to the message taught, not grammatical techniques.

 

[wtopneuma]

I, for one, disagree. We are clearly warned in the New Testament to beware the myths of the ancient Hewbrews and to rebuke them accordingly:

The Anchient Hebrews did not yet exist. Seth was the Father of the Hebrew nation. He wasn't yet born. Even so, any who believe parts of the Bible is not true will have difficulty and struggles believing other parts because their reliance is on their own mind and reasoning.

 

[wtopneuma]

I, for one, disagree. We are clearly warned in the New Testament to beware the myths of the ancient Hewbrews and to rebuke them accordingly:

Jewish myths are not scriptural myths as you are supposing. Paul was referring to those groups opposed to God and His teachings who had turned away from the truth. That was a miss application of scripture.

 

[Mallon]

The Anchient [sic] Hebrews did not yet exist.

It did when Titus was written.

Even so, any who believe parts of the Bible is not true will have difficulty and struggles believing other parts because their reliance is on their own mind and reasoning.

I have no difficulty with my faith if I accept the Scriptures for why they were written (John 20:31). That is, to put us in a right relationship with God.

 

[Assyrian]

Study this some more. The term used was serpent, not snake. If you want to argue with a long list of commentators that this is not referring to Satan, be my guest. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, which is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

Serpent is just an old word for snake. Do you think Satan crawls on his belly and eats dust? That is what the story tells us happened the snake who tempted Eve. But what is really interesting is that the rest of the bible interprets the story metaphorically, it wasn't a snake that tempted humanity, it was the devil.

Literal does not bar the use of metaphors and refers to the message taught, not grammatical techniques.

In this case the metaphor extends right through the chapter and into a prophecy about the Messiah, with no suggestion that the snake was anything other than a very wise reptile. It sounds like the whole story may be an extended metaphor.

 

[theFijian]

Serpent is just an old word for snake. Do you think Satan crawls on his belly and eats dust? That is what the story tells us happened the snake who tempted Eve. But what is really interesting is that the rest of the bible interprets the story metaphorically, it wasn't a snake that tempted humanity, it was the devil.

I would also like to know why snakes are copping the flak for what Satan did.

 

[livingword26]

Adam and Eve had children. Cain, the 1st born was a farmer. Abel tended sheep. Both bought offerings of worship to the Lord. Scripture indicates that Cain bought a token, half-hearted offering.

There is no indication in scripture to suggest that Cain was half hearted in his offering. How do you come by this opinion?

Gen 4:1-5
(1) And Adam knew Eve his wife. And she conceived and bore Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from Jehovah.
(2) And she bore again, his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
(3) And in the end of days, it happened, Cain brought to Jehovah an offering of the fruit of the ground.
(4) And Abel also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat of it. And Jehovah had respect to Abel and to his offering,
(5) but He did not have respect to Cain and to his offering. And Cain glowed with anger, and his face fell.