Creation & Eden-verse by verse

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wtopneuma

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I will do a series of theological posts on creation and The Garden of Eden. I firmly believe these passages govern how he/she interprets the rest of scripture. It will
be posted verse by verse.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. (CEV)

Jesus said that the Trinity existed before the foundations of the world were laid. This has several implications. God existed before time. Time begun with the Creation account strickly for the benefit of man. Time is not a factor in eternity as alluded to by Jesus when He said: "A thousand years is as a day and a day is as a thousand years to God."
The Hebrew Word for God in this passage is Elohim. This is the Hebrew plural form. The Hebrew plural does not begin with two. It begins with three.
God created implies that all of creation was bought into existance out of nothing. This belief puts aside all other creation beliefs. Only God can make something out of nothing.
The heavens and the earth means there was nothing there for other theories for the heavens were part of the creation.

 

billwald

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>Jesus said that the Trinity existed before the foundations of the world were laid.

Chapter and verse?

"Foundations" means what? Why plural? On what were they laid?

>Time begun with the Creation account strickly for the benefit of man.

Time is probably only somethning that clocks measure.
 
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theFijian

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Melethiel said:
Why is that? I would think the Gospels would be the lens for interpreting scripture.

Or am I misunderstanding you?
Absolutely. To use one chapter as the basis for your hermeneutic for the rest of scripture is folly indeed.
 
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IisJustMe

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billwald said:
>Jesus said that the Trinity existed before the foundations of the world were laid.
Chatper and verse?
Genesis 1:1, and he was absolutely right:
wtopneuma said:
The Hebrew Word for God in this passage is Elohim. This is the Hebrew plural form. The Hebrew plural does not begin with two. It begins with three.
The reason this is correct is because the Hebrew took literally God's establishment of marriage, that "the two shall become one flesh." That's the main reason you don't see the wife mentioned throughout the Old Testament writings. It was understood that when the man was mentioned, the woman was right there beside him, as she had become one with him and the two were considered inseperable. BTW, tt helps to read the whole post before leaping into a response.
billwald said:
"Foundations" means what? Why plural? On what were they laid?
"Foundations" is the Hebrew yacad and it means to found, fix, or establish, which is what God did in creating the earth.
billwald said:
Time is probably only somethning that clocks measure.
"probably?" Does that mean you don't know for sure? In fact, you're wrong. Time passes whether it is measured or not, but in God's economy, time is irrelevant. Who invented the clock -- a man, or God? As the OP showed, God has no use for time.
 
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IisJustMe

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Mallon said:
Quote Originally Posted by: wtopneuma

The heavens and the earth means there was nothing there for other theories for the heavens were part of the creation.

Can you please explain what you mean by this?
The Hebrew word for "created" is bara` and carries the sense of creating from nothing. It excludes the TE or OEC view of the earth being reformed or reshaped from existing materials.
 
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Mallon

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IisJustMe said:
The Hebrew word for "created" is bara` and carries the sense of creating from nothing. It excludes the TE or OEC view of the earth being reformed or reshaped from existing materials.
The question was addressed to wtopneuma, but I'll reply to your assertion by respectfully disagreeing with it. Both TEs and OECs believe God made the universe from nothing. What we don't agree with you about is the manner in which He did it.
 
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Marshall Janzen

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IisJustMe said:
The Hebrew word for "created" is bara` and carries the sense of creating from nothing.
The word bara always refers to something God made, but it does not necessarily have the sense of creating from nothing.

In any case, all Christian creationists, including TEs, believe that all of creation was made by God, so creation ex nihilo is not in dispute. That God works and continues to create through what he has made should also not be in dispute.
 
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theFijian

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It excludes the TE or OEC view of the earth being reformed or reshaped from existing materials
Interestingly, this brings up another contradiction between Gen 1 and Gen 2. In Gen 1 the word 'bara' is used with respect to the creation of man, yet in Gen 2 we're told he was formed from dust. What's the YEC concensus on this?
 
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IisJustMe

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Battie said:
Just a note: Elohim is plural in the sense that the English "scissors" and "pants" are plural. I don't know what that means for the Trinity, but it is an important distinction.
Elohim is the plural form of the Hebrew word `elowahh, the singular name of God. Removing plural form of either "scissors" or "pants" (meaning trousers) renders the words gibberish. Such is not the case with elohim. You have been misinformed, as the "distinction" you cite is invalid.
 
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artybloke

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Genesis 1:1,

Sorry, but you were asked for a quote from Jesus not the anonymous author of Genesis. Where did Jesus say that the Trinity was there from the beginning?

Elohim is the plural form of the Hebrew word `elowahh, the singular name of God. Removing plural form of either "scissors" or "pants" (meaning trousers) renders the words gibberish. Such is not the case with elohim. You have been misinformed, as the "distinction" you cite is invalid.

Taking words out of the context of the sentence in which they are placed leads to misunderstanding. Words only mean something when they're used. Does the rest of the sentence (in particular the verb) use a plural form? Or does it use a singular form? If it uses a singular form, then "elohim" is meant to be singular not plural. Also: can you point to any instance in the Hebrew of the time where the singular form of the noun is ever used?
 
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IisJustMe

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artybloke said:
Sorry, but you were asked for a quote from Jesus not the anonymous author of Genesis. Where did Jesus say that the Trinity was there from the beginning?

1. Who is Jesus?
2. How was the Bible written?
(And I'll ignore the higher critical error of claiming Genesis is "anonymous" for the moment, but not for long.)
artybloke said:
Taking words out of the context of the sentence in which they are placed leads to misunderstanding. Words only mean something when they're used.
Really? If I simply type the following word:

Scissors

... is it meaningless without a structured sentence around it? Or do you know precisely what object I'm talking about? The same with elohim or `elowahh. One knows (or will, upon seeking the definition in a concordance or Hebrew lexicon) I am referring to God.
artybloke said:
Does the rest of the sentence (in particular the verb) use a plural form?
Foolish question. There is no such thing in English, Hebrew or most other languages as a sentence with a plural form. Plurals are described by words, not sentence structure. The use of the plural form is deliberate by Moses (who wrote Genesis and the next four books of the Bible), who understood God to be triune in nature. As was stated by another poster here, the Hebrew plural did not denote two or more, but three or more.
artybloke said:
Also: can you point to any instance in the Hebrew of the time where the singular form of the noun is ever used?
You really should learn to not ask questions you don't know the answer to. `Elowahh is translated "God" 57 times in both the KJV and the NASB.

But Jeshurun grew fat and kicked -- You are grown fat, thick, and sleek -- Then he forsook God who made him, And scorned the Rock of his salvation. (Deuteronomy 32:15)

They refused to listen, And did not remember Your wondrous deeds which You had performed among them; So they became stubborn and appointed a leader to return to their slavery in Egypt. But You are a God of forgiveness, Gracious and compassionate, Slow to anger and abounding in lovingkindness; And You did not forsake them.
(Nehemiah 9:17)

For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God, (Psalm 18:31)

'Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long sinceannounced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides * Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.' " (Isaiah 44:8)

Shall I go on? There are 52 more to post. (BTW, "www.studylight.org" provides the lexicon links)
 
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IisJustMe

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rmwilliamsll said:
It is more likely to be equivalent to the English "royal we".
I'm not simply repeating something I've heard, I actually have nine hours of Hebrew in seminary. I'd like to see what led you to the conclusion this is "more likely" if you don't mind. Thanks
 
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rmwilliamsll

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IisJustMe said:
I'm not simply repeating something I've heard, I actually have nine hours of Hebrew in seminary. I'd like to see what led you to the conclusion this is "more likely" if you don't mind. Thanks

you know what they say about Hebrew studies:

there is Hebrew as spoken in Israel.
Hebrew as spoken in the Diasporia
and Hebrew as taught in American seminaries...*grin*

There are lots of Hebrew experts who point out that Elohim takes a singular verb.
just a quick google yields an interesting paper at:
http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cach...ml+elohim+"royal+we"&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4

for a quick introduction to Hebrew grammar it is hard to beat:
http://www.karaites-usa.org/Studies_On/elohim_plural_or_singular_(2).htm
 
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IisJustMe

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rmwilliamsll said:
There are lots of Hebrew experts who point out that Elohim takes a singular verb.
Well, there are a lot of people out there who call themselves experts, I'll agree with that, and some think elohiym is a singular, I'll give you that. Whether or not it is the majority opinion, however, is not in question. It isn't.

Your first link, to Mr. Fogelman's paper, is interesting in that he presents himself as a knowledgable Hebrew scholar, but I can't find anything by him anywhere except on this web link. The telltale indication of his hidden agenda is the fourth paragraph:

[FONT=&quot]
The name Elohim, comes from the Hebrew root el
[/FONT]Actually, the word elohiym is listed in the Hebrew lexicon as the plural of `elowahh. just as I've stated all along. `Elowahh is considered to be from the root `el but that word is considered to have been shortened from `ayil which means "strong," and is itself from the root `owl meaning "noble."
[FONT=&quot]
which means "might" or "power."
[/FONT]In actuality, it means "God" although "strength" (not "might") and "power" is a rarely used meaning referring to men, when the word `elohiym is used in reference to Israel's judges.
[FONT=&quot] If we expand the singular meaning of "El" into the plural, we get "
[FONT=&quot]AUTHORITIES" and/or "POWERS". [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Extrapolating that into the world as we know it, it is an expression of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]ALL[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]THE LAWS OF NATURE/OF THE UNIVERSE. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot]Elohim[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (i.e. God) can then be understood as the multiplicity of all the various powers of nature that control our very existence. [FONT=&quot]It is this multiplicity of authorities, powers or laws, that is an expression of G-d (Hashem) Himself, that is addressing itself when It/He says "Let US (all these powers/laws) make man in Our Image".[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[/FONT]I don't know of any Christian member on this board who would accept "it is an expression of all the laws of nature of the universe" as a definition of God. But it was a really nice try on your part. :D

The second link, by Nehemiah Gordon, is an excellent construct by someone who's own self-interest is to prove the Godhead as Christians understand it doesn't exist, because that would confront the Jews with the lie -- and it is a lie -- that they killed Christ, God the Son. The truth is, we all killed Jesus, with our sin, but by His death we are made a new creation.

The fact of the matter is, there is a simple explanation for the the plural form of elohim in conjunction with the singular verb and modifiers: There is One God, consisting of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, three aspects of God. It is as dimensional space: width, heighth and depth. All three exist as an expression of space, but none can exist without the other two, because they are one.
 
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wtopneuma

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Gen 1:2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters

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We do not know how long the span of time after God created the heavens and the earth that He begun the seven days of creation. Many believe Satan and a third of the rebellious angels of heaven were casted to the earth during this time. We know the whole earth was covered with water and without light. We know that the Holy Spirit was moving upon the face of the waters. Any other bits of information is theory but cannot be proven. The Bible says it and I believe it as written, because I believe the Bible in its original languages to be without error.

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