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Correlation between amounts of faith and supernatural occurrences

Discussion in 'Baptists' started by 98cwitr, Sep 30, 2010.

  1. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator

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    The girlfriend and I were having a Bible study (over the phone) last night and were reading Acts 4 when the light bulb came on.

    Acts 4:


    You don't find this kind of faith anymore. Heck I can just look into history and find "Christians" of the middle ages not demonstrating such faith. You don't see people selling their homes and land and bringing it to the church or give it to the needed. Sure, I've pulled a few bucks out of my pocket to buy a homeless person a cheeseburger or a shirt to wear, but I really cannot even fathom selling all my stuff and giving the money away.

    Do you think that there is a correlation between the amount of faith you have and your ability (only by Christ Himself) to perform miracles? I do. Christ even says so:

    Matthew 17:20
    This only makes me realize how little faith I really have, and how much doubt is really there. I have never see miracles like the ones described in the Gospels or in Acts, nor do I see any Christians I know putting their faith in God instead of doctors when health problems arise, or selling their homes and land to follow Christ and carry their cross. Why is this?
     
  2. mlqurgw

    mlqurgw New Member

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    Why is this? It is because most folks have no idea who God is or who Christ is. But because we might know without even the shadow of a doubt that God is able it doesn't mean He will. The problem is that most folks have faith in their faith instead of in Christ. The Apostles wrought many might works because it clearly showed that they were speaking by God. Heb. 2:1-4 If you see a man working miracles today you had better expect to hear a new revelation from God by him. But since we have the canon of Scripture God has said all He intends to say to us in this world. The working of miracles is no sign of great faith. Satan is very adept at appearing as an angel of light.

    Oh yeah I forgot to address your point about selling all you have. Show me where the Apostles or any of the folks at Jerusalem at that time were told to do such a thing. Actually it didn't work out for them. If you read further into the book of Acts you find folks complaining that they weren't getting their fair share of the communal bounty. The first settlers to this country tried it as well and it was a miserable failure for them as well. Faith isn't doing acts it is simply trusting. If you feel led to sell all you have and give it to the poor then do it but if you tell anyone about it it is nothing but a show. Do what you are convinced is the Lord's will but never make a show of religion. God hates a religious show.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2010
  3. desmalia

    desmalia sounds like somebody's got a case of the mondays

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    Actually history is chock full of great men and women of faith, and there are many even now. If you're not seeing any, perhaps you need to get out more. I realize that sounds flippant. But it's not meant to be. We live in a rich, spoiled, comfortable culture that has most of us lazy and half asleep. Spend some time anywhere else in the world where Christians are persecuted or even just where life is really hard, and you'll see great faith is alive and well and quite obvious.


    Maybe you don't see it because they don't boast about it. Just a thought.

    Disagree. That scripture is often used by proponents of the prosperity gospel to promote the idea that if we just muster up enough "faith" we can perform all sorts of signs and wonders, which is utterly sickening. Faith is a gift from God, for starters. Second, God is not limited in the slightest by us mere puny humans. When He performs miracles it is for His glory in fulfillment of His plan. And no amount of unbelief will thwart His plans. Yes, we certainly have a call and responsibility to live according to the faith He has given us. But that is not so that He can be enabled to do anything.

    Hm, well that's primarily because the Canon of Scripture is closed, and those gifts were primarily for the purpose of authenticating it.

    I'm sorry, but then what kinds of "Christians" are you associating with? Definitely God has given us doctors for the purpose of healing within His providential grace. However when a Christian sees a doctor it should never be because he or she doesn't believe God can heal (in His time, according to His purpose, when it bring Him glory, of course!). We trust Him with all aspects of our lives, do we not? That includes trusting that He has provided legitimate means for us to function in daily life with out constant requirement for miraculous intervention.
     
  4. faceofbear

    faceofbear Veteran

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    I agree. And I've known of a ministry which witnessed miracles first hand on Skid Row in LA. A group of people prayed over a palsy, and she got out of her wheel chair and was cured (it's in the Lord's hands). Yet, the natural mind doubts this, "Was she really palsy to begin with?" I question it as well, even though I'm telling you this. The whole, "those were signs to the original church to authenticate their faith," is not necessarily true. It's based on one scripture that does not give a definitive of when it would end. In fact, the Bible teaches that many false teachers will deny the power of godliness (I'm not accusing anyone, just bringing it up). However, in the same verse it tells us that knowledge will pass away as well, so has knowledge stopped too?

    I've known very few Christians who have done such things (selling all their possessions). I do not think that it is because they don't make a show, I think it's because they don't. I'm not trying to come of judgmental, but it's common sense. The whole early churches' faith was heard throughout the world. Was it heard because they did what they did in secret? Doubtful. We're not to boast in our works and we're not to judge people who do not do the same works as us. Not necessarily that we shouldn't make our works known. Even Jesus said people will know we are His disciples by our love. It must be seen in order for people to know. It's one thing to make it seen, it's another thing to make a show of it.

    Now, people suppress the truth to deny God. But as I've mentioned before (I think here on CF), perhaps the reason so many people are atheists, is because the church is complacent. I realize this is a lot of generalizations, so if this doesn't fit you, I'm sorry.

    But I'm hypocritical of everything I've mentioned above.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2010
  5. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator

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    Isn't the conduct of these disciples a model that we Christians are to follow?
     
  6. MagusAlbertus

    MagusAlbertus custom user title

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    The conduct of Jesus is our model but we aren't supposed to get nailed to anything wooden.

    You only need to sell everything if it is in the way of you giving everything to God. You are right, we teach the now-satanic teaching of tithing. In reality 100% goes to God, 0% is required to go to church(club-house)fees because 100% is to go to Church (benefit of the kingdom overall).

    Not to say that giving 10% to club-house fees is wrong! It's just that if you do so and think you're aces spending the rest of your money on things that don't benefit the Kingdom the you have been deceived. (taking care of yourself, kids etc benefits the Kingdom)
     
  7. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator

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    we're not talking about tithes, Magus, you cannot carry your cross and your possessions at the same time.

    Matthew 10:38
    and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

    Matthew 16:24
    Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

    Mark 8:34
    Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

    Luke 9:23
    Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.

    Luke 14:27
    And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.


    That's not the point of this thread though. Christ tells us with only a little faith we can move a mountain or move and reroot a tree in the sea. This might be figurative to mean we can do great things, but I don't see that from any of the Christians that I have come in contact with and would really like to see it for myself. I would like to see what realy faith is apart from my own imagination.
     
  8. MagusAlbertus

    MagusAlbertus custom user title

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    I'm not so sure you want what you're asking for. Faith enough to change the world around you in dramatic ways can lead to a big dose of "careful what you wish for".

    Go talk to some folks at pentecostal church's who were physically addicted to substances and didn't suffer any physiological symptoms of withdrawal because they kept in the Lord; as a matter of fact if you don't understand what Jesus was talking about there you might do well to fast, pray and spend some time praising God for who God is and just standing right-under his Love.

    When you feel the water spring-up in you and start to un-fathom the infinite breath with and depth of God... when you see what Christ would have had for you as a person if you had stayed in Him... that's when you'll understand man:

    The change to reality that occurs through faith happens ALL the time, but we forget about it because memory of such events was reserved for those bearing witness for the bible: all so that we can have faith.

    Would you rather see and believe, or be counted among those who do not see but still believe?
     
  9. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator

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    I'm talking about people doing supernatural things through the spirit. God doing supernatural things on His own is quite obvious :)
     
  10. FaithPleases

    FaithPleases Newbie

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    Off topic here. Is to deny ourselves to give up things that start taking control of our lives8
     
  11. mlqurgw

    mlqurgw New Member

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    No it isn't. The acts of these men are written for our admonition in order that we may see that when men take things into their own hands they screw it up. The Apostles were not infallible as men. They did things that was not according to the truth of the Gospel. They took avote to replace Judas when the Spirit never told them to and the result is they voted for a man you never heard of before or after. Paul was the appointed replacement for Judas but they couldn't wait so they took things into their own hands. Paul had to rebuke Peter for his actions. What we find is men just like us, not superspiritual or above acting like the men they were. The point and message of those passages that show the early believers as mere men tell us a great deal about ourselves.
     
  12. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator

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    well if the conduct of the disciples isn't a good model for our own actions, then the only thing we have left is Christ...oh wait....

    Matthew 19:21
    Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
     
  13. mlqurgw

    mlqurgw New Member

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    And you miss the whole point that the Lord was making. The rich young ruler loved his riches and Christ met him at the point of his rebellion. As I said if you believe that you need to sell all you have and give to the poor and follow Christ then do it but don't argue over it or try to convince us that it is right.
     
  14. faceofbear

    faceofbear Veteran

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    Don't forget the verses after..

    Mat 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?
    Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me [not just believed], in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
     
  15. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator

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    doesn't get much plainer than that. So these great amounts of faith would yield supernatural results, right?
     
  16. mlqurgw

    mlqurgw New Member

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    So are you giong to pluck out your eyes in order to keep from looking at a women with lust? Are you going to cut off your hands in order to keep from wanting what isn't yours? This type of literal application to spiritual truth is nonsense. Do you honestly think that you can twist God's arm by a show of great faith? God never blesses His people because of what they do but because of what Christ did. Eph. 1:3
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2010
  17. MagusAlbertus

    MagusAlbertus custom user title

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    If you acquiesce to the fact that God performs super-natural events all the time then you must know that it is only God through those (and those with faith standing in God) that leads to super-natural events.

    Think of it this way; the light shines in the darkness and some times we are transparent enough, by God's grace, to allow that light to shine through us.

    That light can change the darkness, because the darkness has no power over it; but being a transparent vessel through which God shines his light only works when you are transparent, that is lined up with God in the first place.
     
  18. 98cwitr

    98cwitr Lord forgive me Staff Member Moderator

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    Jesus makes a good point about amputating those things in your life that cause sin...thankfully it's a metaphor, since your eye or hand doesn't literally cause you to sin.
     
  19. mlqurgw

    mlqurgw New Member

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    And again you miss the point. You miss the point of Christ's instruction and words and you miss the point I was making. Go ahead and try to apply your woodenly literal interpretaion of the Scriptures and see how far it gets you. Perhaps then you will be more able to learn.
     
  20. MagusAlbertus

    MagusAlbertus custom user title

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    Do not do this, clay jars are expensive and literally carrying a cross around is simply pretentious.