Controversial Sermon

[sjdean]

Went to Church yesterday (CofE) and began to feel a bit uncomfortable by the Sermon where the preacher seemed to be upholding Islamic principles and values, talking about how much we can learn from them and talking about ways of reaching out to Muslims by joining with them in fasting during ramadan. He then went onto suggest that there could be many paths to God and that we all worship the same God.

I must admit, although I've contemplated this thought myself and often discussed it, I probably wouldn't go and preach about if asked. (not that I can preach).

I seem to keep recalling bits in the old testament about worship of false gods and the Baals etc, and thinking, well, why would I want to align myself, even if it is just out of support, to the practices of worshipping something other than my God?

(I do believe that there are fundamental differences between the teachings of Christianity and Islam which suggests it can not possibly come from the same source)

Cya
Simon

 

[oi_antz]

He then went onto suggest that there could be many paths to God and that we all worship the same God.
Simon

I received these words by someone Holier than me, they state that Love and Fear are necessary elements to contextualise life, yet Jesus speaks pure Love because it is only God who speaks to us in an eternal way. We all get that when we expect it to happen and the world is Gods gift to us, hope you don't mind my own opinion

That particular Holy person is the Christ y'all and I ain't an antichrist rat you know.

 

[Aibrean]

I would be leaving that church. He's turning towards apostacy.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Muslims don't believe that Jesus is the son of God. They believe Allah is too "good" to have a son. It would be beneath him to have a son. If you don't have Jesus you don't have salvation. If you don't have Jesus you have no way to God.

 

[heron]

I agree with you about thinking and not preaching. It comes across as authoritative when he says it. When I am in mosque neighborhoods, I use the call to prayer as a handy reminder. But I would never organize a Christian prayer meeting around the times an imam is leading.

As expressed above, that is subtly putting your worship into the leadership of someone who will misdirect you.

Reaching out to Muslims is fine, but the ones who are devoted and fasting have little intention of changing. They have a stronger obligation to convert Christians than the reverse.

Reaching out as a neighbor, that's different. Respecting their fasting times by not eating in front of them, not having an outdoor party next door... that can be just thoughtful sensitivity.

As I hear, the UK ministers are in a position where they have to address Islam somehow, or reconcile it in their minds. Many pastors read books, say, "hmm that makes sense," then distill it for their congregations.

But then what they present is the half-hour version with their own opinions and stories inserted... so the congregants often miss the logical thought process. Depending on the pastor.

"Many paths to God" is where I would be most concerned. He would not have said that unless he is starting to think that himself, because he knows his role and weight of responsibility.

Look back through history, when the church was used to accomplish political ends. Keep an eye out for that happening now.

Consider making an appointment with your pastor, and letting him know that you are concerned. He might not know how strongly he came across... or why you could consider leaving eventually.

He's a human being.

 

[sjdean]

I forgot the best bit, when he talked about how good it would be to change the "affirmation of faith", so it never mentioned the holy spirit or the suffering of Jesus, only about God, and that we worship God through Jesus and are stewards of his universe.

I must stress, this is the first time I heard that vicar, but it highlighted a queston to me - is a communion still a communion, does it still hold value, if it is administered by, as you say, an apostate?

May as well just get circumcised.

 

[heron]

how good it would be to change the "affirmation of faith"

:o

What!
Yes, this is over the edge.

1. Go talk with him

2. Talk with the elders, or write them a note

3. You are part of the CofE, right? They oversee discrepancies like this. If they were the source of the idea, then it's a good time to run. But I'm guessing they would step in and have a little talk with him.

He can't call himself one thing, get a paycheck, and then direct people toward something else. The CoE supports his work.

 

[heron]

Simon,
I just checked their site, and nothing significant has changed.

What it means to be an Anglican | Church of England
What it means to be a Christian | Church of England

You can contact your local diocese here... but remember they might be friends with your minister. Don't give up. Defend what God and other Christians have built up over the years.

How to contact us | Church of England

Out of curiosity, you might drift over to the dreams and visions forum over the next few weeks. Some people have had dreams lately that seem to show ecumenical movements.

 

[heron]

May as well just get circumcised.

Heh, well, if that's your expression of religious despair, I won't stop you.

 

[tansy]

Well, just my two pennies worth. I believe that one can only get to the Father through Jesus. What I wonder is if sometimes when people say that all paths lead to God, that perhaps they only mean that those people of other faiths are seeking God in their own way, and that somehow (if they are honestly seeking God and truth and righteousness)), that the Holy Spirit will bring them to Jesus, and thus to the Father. Perhaps they don't NECESSArily mean what it sounds like they mean. But still, I think it is a dangerous thing to preach with no explanation of what exactly they're getting at.
Perhaps, as a poster sbove, suggested, you ought to ask the person EXACTLY what he was getting at.

 

[heron]

What I wonder is if sometimes when people say that all paths lead to God, that perhaps they only mean that those people of other faiths are seeking God in their own way, and that somehow (if they are honestly seeking God and truth and righteousness)), that the Holy Spirit will bring them to Jesus, and thus to the Father.

There's always that question of what a person would do when faced with Jesus at death... whether there is a cushion of time where they are allowed to see who God is. I do think He is less narrowed by restrictions and writings than we imagine Him.

Jesus has appeared to people in remote villages; angels have spoken of Him to people who had no Bible... there are stories.

And we have to wonder if some of these religions did not start in the same place, with an encounter with the same God.

But for a vicar to declare a denominational church is about to change their belief system, that's serious.

My pastor when I was first a Christian was like that, and it was quite spicy talking about his sermons over Sunday lunch.

 

[sjdean]

I think it was all mainly in reference to the topic of Acts yesterday, the readings being from John 13:31-35 and Acts 11:1-8

I don't think he actually said many paths lead to God, very non committal on the subject, and gave the two opposing views of an interpretation of scripture, one being a literal the only path to God is through faith in Jesus, while the other we can look at it like a mountain leading to the summit and many paths to the top.

There seems to be a heavy influence at the moment from a chap called Ray Gaston.

When I heard it yesterday and went back home to look it up, it all sounded very liberal and wishy washy, very "Brian McLaren" oriented which doesn't sit well at all with me.

But I'll ask, that's some good advice. I probably misheard, he may have had a different meaning.

 

[tansy]

There's always that question of what a person would do when faced with Jesus at death... whether there is a cushion of time where they are allowed to see who God is. I do think He is less narrowed by restrictions and writings than we imagine Him.

Jesus has appeared to people in remote villages; angels have spoken of Him to people who had no Bible... there are stories.

And we have to wonder if some of these religions did not start in the same place, with an encounter with the same God.

But for a vicar to declare a denominational church is about to change their belief system, that's serious.

My pastor when I was first a Christian was like that, and it was quite spicy talking about his sermons over Sunday lunch.

Yes, I've heard all kinds of things like that.....and God is not willing that any should perish I'm certain He does everything possible to bring people to Christ
I'm not sure that the vicar was actualy saying the CofE was about to change their belief system..rather that he thought some things would be a good idea.

 

[Aibrean]

He may have had a different meaning but that is the point - it can be easily mean anything else. You don't want to confuse congregants and you certainly don't want to confuse visitors.

 

[oi_antz]

"that is subtly putting your worship into the leadership of someone who will misdirect you" there is subtlety in all our messages of Love,

"He's turning towards apostacy."

Why would anyone not think I've made that decision already?

 

[oi_antz]

"the readings being from John 13:31-35 and Acts 11:1-8" - thank you for those readings, it is not only I who can show someone the Word God would choose, it is for every disciple of Christ to do equally within the spirit of Christ and for the same purpose - "growth" in my humble opinion.

 

[Peripatetic]

While this particular sermon seems to be controversial, I don't think we should be completely closed minded to learning from certain aspects of other faiths. For example, Muslims focus on surrender to God.... something that many prideful Christians could learn from. Also, American Indians show more respect for nature than many of us. A Christian that is strong in his/her faith should not be afraid to seek understanding of other faiths. It doesn't mean you have to subscribe to them. Yes, there are big missing pieces and/or aspects that are in conflict with ours, but it doesn't mean that they are 100% evil either.

 

[JELIEL]

Are we really so different? or are we all created in His images?

Beliefs & Doctrine

Chrisitian - Belief - One God, Jehovah, the God of Abraham
Islam " One God Allah, the God of Abraham

Christian - nature of God - Trinity, three persons, One substance, One God,
Islam " " " One God, One substance, One person

Christian - other spiritual beings - Angels & demons
Islam " " " - Angels & demons

Chrisitian - identity of Jesus - Son of God, God incarnate, Saviour of the world
Islam " " " - True prophet of God

Christian - Birth of Jesus - Virgin Birth
Islam " " " - Virgin Birth

Christian - Human nature - "original sin" inherited from Adam, tendency towards evil
Islam " " - equal ability to do good or evil

Christian - means of salvation - correct belief, faith, good deeds, sacraments
Islam " " " - correct belief, faith, good deeds, five pillars

Christian - After Life - Heaven and Hell
Islam " " - Paradise and Hell

 

[sjdean]

Surely Islam disagrees on perhaps the biggest facet of the Christian faith, that in being that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, a sacrificial lamb for the atonement to allow us to be reconciled with God because ultimately, there is nothing we can do for our own salvation, except faith, faith in Christ in being who he is, the son of God.

If Christ was just a prophet, then the Christian faith crumbles and we don't have forgiveness?

 

[JELIEL]

Surely Islam disagrees on perhaps the biggest facet of the Christian faith, that in being that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, a sacrificial lamb for the atonement to allow us to be reconciled with God because ultimately, there is nothing we can do for our own salvation, except faith, faith in Christ in being who he is, the son of God.

If Christ was just a prophet, then the Christian faith crumbles and we don't have forgiveness?

“As far as the east is from the west, so far He removed our transgressions from us” (Psalm 103:12)

When God washes us, we are clean. “Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow” (Psalm. 51:7).

God “pardons abundantly” (Isa. 55:7), “all your iniquities” (Ps. 103:3).

“And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more” (Hebrews 10:17; Jeremiah 31:34).

God says in the Bible, "I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake; and I will not remember your sins" (Isaiah 43:25 Heb. 8:12; 10:17).

Of course religions disagree between each other’s beliefs and doctrines, that is the reasons why there are so many religions in the world. Christian denominations alone are around 33,000 the reasons for so many Christian denominations are mainly based on disagreements over the interpretation of Scripture.

Disagreements over the meaning and purpose of baptism. Is baptism a requirement for salvation or is it symbolic of the salvation process?

Personal issues and power hungry individuals. Joyce Meyer did not like her church, so she start her own, King Henry VIII did not get a divorce from the Pope, so the whole country is no longer Catholic but Anglican. If I don’t like it I make my own. Julius August decided to add 2 months to the calendar; July and August, can you really say with no doubt when Jesus was born?

Disagreements over the interpretation of Scripture are taken personally, literally, symbolic or metaphysical. Some examples of this are TV-evangelists, a new fashion this days is every “Dick, Tom and Harry” decided to publish his own “Bible” explaining and adding to it; Joyce Meyers “Bible”, Joel & Victoria Osteen “Bible”, Benny Hinn Bible, etc.

Disagreements over the Trinity. Not every Christian denomination beliefs in the Trinity as the Trinity did not come into place until the First Council of Nicaea which was 325 years after Jesus, therefore for the first 325 year AD and for the rest of the BC there was not Trinity, just the first command, that there is only One God not 3 in one.

Disagreements over Jesus being God. As well as above, some Christians belief Jesus was human, a man, a teacher, who discover the divinity of man, his own divinity.

So regarding your sermon, here a few things I have learn from talking and debating with Muslims:

Whenever they talk about God and Mohammed they always say “Blessed be their Name” this show me that they do not take the name of God in vain.

I was very impress when I asked about Jesus and not only they belief in Jesus as well (although as a holy prophet) but they also say “Blesses be his name” every time they mention Jesus name. So far, I have not come across a Christian, which shows this kind of respect for the name of Jesus.

6 "I said, 'You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.' Psalm 82:6

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[a]? John 10:34

Jesus: "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. Mathews 21:22

 

[oi_antz]

God says in the Bible, Christian denominations alone are around 33,000 the reasons for so many Christian denominations are mainly based on disagreements over the interpretation of Scripture.

I say we are missing something crucial in life and that is the son of God.

Jesus: "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. Mathews 21:22

I am not standing against the Christ at all.