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Consummation...

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Sep 10, 2010.

  1. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Daniel 9:27
    And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    What is the consummation? Consummation of what? There is only one place in which the consummation is mentioned in scripture.. so if it is referenced in other parts of scripture, it is not by the word consummation.

    "Consummation" the word itself in hebrew..

    "Takliyth" means

    end, perfection, consummation, completion, completeness end completeness

    "Teleiosis"

    a completing, a perfecting fulfilment, accomplishment the event which verifies the promise
     
  2. Lulav

    Lulav Messianic Maven Supporter

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    Here is a translation from the LXX

     
  3. Lulav

    Lulav Messianic Maven Supporter

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    From the Mesorah Heritage Foundation translation from Hebrew:

    27 He will forge a strong covenant with the great ones for one septet; but for half of that septet he will abolish sacrifice and meal-offering, and the mute abominations will be upon soaring heights, until extermination as decreed will pour down upon the mute [abomination].
     
  4. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

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    The Lamb is the groom, the body of all true believers is the Bride. In any form of marriage the union only becomes complete at the consummation - the end of the period of waiting for the promise that was previously made to be fulfilled. It is marked by the arrival of the groom and the willing giving of ones self as the bride, in spiritual terms. This is all about the end times when Yeshua takes us, as a groom would take his bride, to his father's house, where there are many rooms - he told us that this is so! There the banquet table will be set out in the sight of our enemies (those who have been anti us because we are believe in Yeshua, or just anti G_d, and are now in hell) and our cup will overflow (unlike those who will have no cup to quench their thirst), and will be full to the brim, signifying life and joy in Yeshua. The consummation refers to these times - the final giving of groom to bride and bride to groom, to live together to eternity - there is no death to make us part from each other, as with earthly marriage, and no divorce (you cannot divorce G_d in heaven!!!).

    There is so much more to this symbolism but I haven't the time to write it. Try reading through passages that relate to the theme of marriage in some way: promise (communion is a sign of that - this is the new promise in my blood... - as are both ET and LT, both of which should be called The Promise, not testaments), think in terms of wedding banquets etc etc. (Avoid the in-laws as there won't be any in heaven!).

    Are our lamps filled with oil and our wicks trimmed for the consummation, or will we be like the lazy brides who miss out?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2010
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    If the consummation is the wedding then what is "that determined"?
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2010
  6. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

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    Vis - there's a syntax error in your question... can you correct and re-post it?
     
  7. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

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    Daniel 9:27 JS version (JPS 1917): "During one week he will make a firm covenant with many. For half a week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the meal offering. At the corner (of the altar) will be an appalling abomination until the agreed destruction will be poured down on the appalling thing"
     
  8. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    It has nothing to do with a wedding. It has to do with the destruction of both the city and its desolator. Where in the world did a marriage come into the text? The first place you should always turn is to the text itself, which has nothing to do with a marriage/wedding but everything to do with the destruction of the city. The “consummation” is both the end of the war and the end of the punishment that was decreed to be poured out on those who had caused the incitement.
     
  9. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

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    Exactly so - at the great wedding feast spoken about in the latter testament. That is when the city will be destroyed and the new Jerusalem will come down, beautifully dressed like a bride for her husband (Revelation) and the abomination will be destroyed. However, if you do not accept the latter testament you would not see this (Isaiah 29:9-14, perhaps?).

    Context is paramount, I agree, but one must read Scripture as a whole - a wider context; a good exegete will look to see below the words on the page and find the allusions and references to other parts of Scripture and measure the whole. Daniel is a well known prophecy of the arrival of Yeshua and these passages in particular relate directly to his teaching as well.
     
  10. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    You don't expect me to agree with this statement, do you?
     
  11. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

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    That is why I quoted from Isaiah! You don't expect me NOT to believe it, do you?
     
  12. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    Well, of course I expect you to believe that. Your theology is constructed on the basis of the Christian Scriptures. It shouldn’t surprise anyone that you turn to those texts to assume a new (though unrelated) context for interpreting Daniel 9 – which has absolutely nothing to do with a wedding feast or any such thing. I’m just saying that in this text (within its own context) the “consummation” referred to is to the end of the war, most surely the Roman war against Israel.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2010
  13. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

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    So when is (was) the flood by which final destruction of the city & sanctuary is to be seen? Bearing mind, by your exegetical style, you may not step outside of the text to which I refer or its immediate context.
     
  14. yonah_mishael

    yonah_mishael הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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    The Roman armies flooded into the country and specifically into the city of Jerusalem, overcame it, slaughtered its inhabitants and washed away the life that was there. A flood need not be one of water.
     
  15. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

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    Wow that's exceptionally bad exegesis! But I note your little uncertainty in your penulitimate post, above. There is no support in the Tanach for there to be a flood of people - that is pure and absolute conjecture. In most parts of scripture it is normal to talk about insects or animals being likened to invading armies, not floods of people. Perhaps Noach's ark was surrounded by floods of people and not water? And you complain that I tie Daniel in with the last days and the teaching from the Tanach that Rabbis Yeshua and Sha'ul et al taught; they didn't have the latter testament by the way - they only used the earlier one that you use. Incidentally, the modern day Jewish Study Bible also shows Daniel 9 towards the end as relating to the Last Days based as its commentary is on the JPS 1917.

    Btw, who was the messiah referred to in these last verses of Daniel 9?
     
  16. David Ben Yosef

    David Ben Yosef Foundation In Torah

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    Wrong. The Torah is clear that HaShem is the groom, and Israel is the bride. Why don't you believe the Torah?
     
    Bananna likes this.
  17. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

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    DBY - you clearly haven't made yourself acquainted with the Scriptures beyond 2 Chronicles in the Bible, so I am a little unsure why you choose to debate with those who have and believe what they have read. Torah does, arguably, show us Yeshua in the same way that the latter testament would be worthless without Torah. Though, of course, my comment about Isaiah 29 (above) makes it clear that some will never see the connection as Isaiah prophesies.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2010
  18. David Ben Yosef

    David Ben Yosef Foundation In Torah

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    That's an ignorant statement. How could you possibly know what I have, and have not aquainted myself with? You don't. You consistently post out of arrogance. Please stop.

    The Tanakh consistently identifies HaShem as the groom, and Israel as the bride. You either believe it, or you don't. It's really that simple.
     
  19. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Unteresting that they choose "mute abominations" .. I wonder what that could possible mean??
     
  20. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    It is amazing at the variety of ways this verse has been translated...
     
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