Considerations in science

pshun2404

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Some interesting philosophical assessments for the scientifically oriented were pointed out in Living Issues in Philosophy (1972 edition) that I though worthy of consideration and wondered what others might think…

1) Scientific research can only find that which our methods and instruments are capable of finding.

2) Every observation includes an observer and every experiment an experimenter who designs it. Thus one can never be totally free of a somewhat subjective element.

3) Each scientific conclusion includes the physical analysis (which is concrete and for the most part objective) and the resultant mathematical and logical speculation (which is abstract and often contains subjectivity)

4) No single method of classification describes or finds everything of the subject matter being classified and there can be different bases upon which different classification systems can be created.

5) Definitions (for example what is a species) vary over time to include the more general variances and nuances, as well as new facts discovered, of the one or many that are defining a thing or subject.

6) The whole may have qualities not found in the parts and the parts can have qualities nor reflected or not discerned when looking at the whole (the nature of the Atom is a great example here).

7) There can be many interpretations of a thing, person, or event. How, when, or from what angle we look at a thing or event/process can influence our conclusions (what is the nature of an electron is a perfect example).

8) Anything in process or development can only be completely understood when one grasps the past of the process or development and the future or where or why it going there (which can never actually be fully known until we arrive at that place).

9) Conclusions are only as precise as the concluding intellect can analyze, organize, and articulate them.

Do you agree or disagree with any, why or why not…and I realize this is looking at science philosophically so it is from that perspective (which demonstrates point 10 nicely for those who may disagree).

Paul
 

astein

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1) Scientific research can only find that which our methods and instruments are capable of finding.

Let's go deeper.

2) Every observation includes an observer and every experiment an experimenter who designs it. Thus one can never be totally free of a somewhat subjective element.

Can another judge the observations of another?

3) Each scientific conclusion includes the physical analysis (which is concrete and for the most part objective) and the resultant mathematical and logical speculation (which is abstract and often contains subjectivity).


Does a proof prove itself over and over again?

4) No single method of classification describes or finds everything of the subject matter being classified and there can be different bases upon which different classification systems can be created.

Is the truth not based on truth?

5) Definitions (for example what is a species) vary over time to include the more general variances and nuances, as well as new facts discovered, of the one or many that are defining a thing or subject.

If a scientific definition is not based on truth, does it not make that definition void and null? It must be based upon truth or it fails to meet qualifications.

6) The whole may have qualities not found in the parts and the parts can have qualities nor reflected or not discerned when looking at the whole (the nature of the Atom is a great example here).

A whole is required to analize a part of a whole, a part and the parts must line up according to the whole or the whole isn't factual.

7) There can be many interpretations of a thing, person, or event. How, when, or from what angle we look at a thing or event/process can influence our conclusions (what is the nature of an electron is a perfect example).

Can an opinion have a voice when truth is relevent?

8) Anything in process or development can only be completely understood when one grasps the past of the process or development and the future or where or why it going there (which can never actually be fully known until we arrive at that place).

Can a tv program be active when its end is inconclusive?

9) Conclusions are only as precise as the concluding intellect can analyze, organize, and articulate them.

A summary(conclusion) is based on truth.

Do you agree or disagree, why or why not…and I realize this is looking at science philosophically so it is from that perspective (which demonstrates point 10 nicely for those who may disagree).

I agree that God is all wisdom and understanding, and that mankinds wisdom falls short. And should not overcomplicate things.

 
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pshun2404

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Thanks!

If a scientific definition is not based on truth, does it not make that definition void and null? It must be based upon truth or it fails to meet qualifications.


A scientific definition is usually based on observed facts, or theorizing based on that data about whatever they are defining. A fact can be and usually is what actually is there, but can also be what is supposed (thought to be) true based on the position or opinion regarding those facts from the observers position. Thus facts can be redefined or expanded on as new data is obtained or observed where "truth" is more than what one sees as truth it actually is what is...2 things plus 2 things is 4 things anywhere anytime in the past, present, or future...this is truth. One witness can report facts they were drawn to attend to while another can report different facts of the same event, or even have a different perspective on the same facts.

Paul
 
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juvenissun

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Some interesting philosophical assessments for the scientifically oriented were pointed out in Living Issues in Philosophy (1972 edition) that I though worthy of consideration and wondered what others might think…

1) Scientific research can only find that which our methods and instruments are capable of finding.

It can. But not "only" can. So this one is either wrong or trying to mislead.

If the first one is wrong, the rest should be wrong too. (I refuse to waste my time to go over them)
 
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pshun2404

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It can. But not "only" can. So this one is either wrong or trying to mislead.

If the first one is wrong, the rest should be wrong too. (I refuse to waste my time to go over them)

I am not saying you are incorrect.

So are you saying science is capable of finding more than what our methods or instrumentation can find?

I am a bit confused by your comment, maybe I misunderstood it. If I did not can you give an example of our finding something more than our methods and instruments are capable of finding out? Thanks...again I am not disagreeing, you may well be correct, but I may have misunderstood.

Also since these other observations do not come out of the first observation, because one is false (which it may be) does not negate the others. For example the definition of what a species is has indeed changed over time. It means much more today than when Darwin wrote. Today some scientists would call a bacteria strain now resistant to penicillin to be a new species but it remains the same bacteria which had adapted...my daughter Salome is also totally resistant to penicillin but she is not a new species (the difference having to do with how we transmit genetic information in offspring).

Paul
 
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juvenissun

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I am not saying you are incorrect.

So are you saying science is capable of finding more than what our methods or instrumentation can find?

Science includes logic. Logic can process data obtained by methods and instruments.
 
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pshun2404

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Science includes logic. Logic can process data obtained by methods and instruments.

Right, but only based on what they obtain through their methods and instrumentation correct? I am just trying to understand how this disagrees with the first statement if it does...

Paul
 
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juvenissun

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Right, but only based on what they obtain through their methods and instrumentation correct? I am just trying to understand how this disagrees with the first statement if it does...

Paul

Yes, 'based on'. That means 'more than'.

If you are interested in the mistake of other items, I don't mind to go to the next one.
 
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pshun2404

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Yes, 'based on'. That means 'more than'.

If you are interested in the mistake of other items, I don't mind to go to the next one.

So Scientific research can only find that which our methods and instruments are capable of finding which can then be speculated on would be more correct. Number 3 deals with this.

Would scientists think to speculate on that which have never found indicated by our methods and instruments? I mean they could, but what else would indicate the basis for their speculation? Even mathematical probabilities result from mathematics as we understand it.

However thanks for your feedback and sure take another at will. I love to think and learn and reasoning on a given premise is what philosophy is all about. How about number 2?

Paul
 
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SkyWriting

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Thanks!
If a scientific definition is not based on truth, does it not make that definition void and null? It must be based upon truth or it fails to meet qualifications.A scientific definition is usually based on observed facts, or theorizing based on that data about whatever they are defining. A fact can be and usually is what actually is there, but can also be what is supposed (thought to be) true based on the position or opinion regarding those facts from the observers position. Thus facts can be redefined or expanded on as new data is obtained or observed where "truth" is more than what one sees as truth it actually is what is...2 things plus 2 things is 4 things anywhere anytime in the past, present, or future...this is truth. One witness can report facts they were drawn to attend to while another can report different facts of the same event, or even have a different perspective on the same facts. Paul

Math does have proofs no truths. Science does not have truths or proofs.
Science has only "maybe this will happen again" or "usually I get this result, odds are good you will too".
 
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1) Scientific research can only find that which our methods and instruments are capable of finding.

It can. But not "only" can. So this one is either wrong or trying to mislead. If the first one is wrong, the rest should be wrong too. (I refuse to waste my time to go over them)

If only you took the time to show how it was wrong. Instead I got the impression, from your lack of effort on #1, that the rest will be correct as well.

So I got to #4 with no problem.
4) No single method of classification describes or finds everything of the subject matter being classified and there can be different bases upon which different classification systems can be created.


I think it would read better as "biases."

and there can be different biases upon which different classification systems can be created.
http://wikipedia/ List_of_cognitive_biases
 
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pshun2404

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1) Scientific research can only find that which our methods and instruments are capable of finding.



If only you took the time to show how it was wrong. Instead I got the impression, from your lack of effort on #1, that the rest will be correct as well.

So I got to #4 with no problem.



I think it would read better as "biases."

and there can be different biases upon which different classification systems can be created.
http://wikipedia/ List_of_cognitive_biases

Hmmm? Interesting...thanks

Paul
 
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juvenissun

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4) No single method of classification describes or finds everything of the subject matter being classified and there can be different bases upon which different classification systems can be created.

It implies that one population could be classified by different criteria and they are equally good.

This is obviously not true in science. Some criteria ARE better than some other criteria. (may be the idea of "better" should be defined more clearly. but it could be done if needed)
 
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juvenissun

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2) Every observation includes an observer and every experiment an experimenter who designs it. Thus one can never be totally free of a somewhat subjective element.

I designed a version of experiment toward an issue and described my observation.

So, what I presented is "a part" of the whole issue. It is not subjective. It is absolutely objective.

Example: I describe a woman by the color of blouse she wore at a place on a particular time. This info is no doubt objective.
 
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pshun2404

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It implies that one population could be classified by different criteria and they are equally good.

This is obviously not true in science. Some criteria ARE better than some other criteria. (may be the idea of "better" should be defined more clearly. but it could be done if needed)

Better no! Just different...it nowhere draws a distinction of value regarding one over another, you are reading that in.

Paul
 
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pshun2404

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I designed a version of experiment toward an issue and described my observation.

So, what I presented is "a part" of the whole issue. It is not subjective. It is absolutely objective.

Example: I describe a woman by the color of blouse she wore at a place on a particular time. This info is no doubt objective.

Yes but another may have classified their observation of the same person/event based on her skirt and hair color and a blind person standing near her by her smell or the sound of her walk and so on...each has expressed their subjective experience and none have falsified data or disregarded those observations of any other observer. Thus the same phenomena has been seen and described and interpreted differently by three different observers (each being as objective as is humanly possible).
 
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juvenissun

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Yes but another may have classified their observation of the same person/event based on her skirt and hair color and a blind person standing near her by her smell or the sound of her walk and so on...each has expressed their subjective experience and none have falsified data or disregarded those observations of any other observer. Thus the same phenomena has been seen and described and interpreted differently by three different observers (each being as objective as is humanly possible).

No interpretation, just description.
No matter now many, they are all objective.
Remember, we are talking about science, not literature.
 
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juvenissun

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Better no! Just different...it nowhere draws a distinction of value regarding one over another, you are reading that in.

Paul

Of course some are definitely better. Remember again that we are talking about science.

For example, how do you classify minerals? plants? rocks? stars? planets?

There is ONE best way to do it in each of those things.
 
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pshun2404

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Of course some are definitely better. Remember again that we are talking about science.

For example, how do you classify minerals? plants? rocks? stars? planets?

There is ONE best way to do it in each of those things.

I agree. The ones we use are best as far as we can do this at this time. And indeed we strive within our limitations to be as objective in these areas as we can be.

Paul
 
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I designed a version of experiment toward an issue and described my observation.

So, what I presented is "a part" of the whole issue. It is not subjective. It is absolutely objective.

Example: I describe a woman by the color of blouse she wore at a place on a particular time. This info is no doubt objective.

People do perceive colors differently. While my wife could recall the hue, I do not generally recall any pastel colors at all. Others have problem with time.
 
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