Confessions of a YEC Zealot

[Critias]

I can understand your point, but if we simply "give up" on the Genesis 1, how much more would we be willing to give up on? We would have to deny the lineage written there that is the direct line from Adam to Jesus. We would have to deny that Adam was the first created man, and that through him death entered the world. If we deny that, then why did Jesus die? Death is not of God, which is why Jesus came to conquer it.

I didn't mean you must give up on your belief in creationism. But rather understand that after years of debating TE's that it might be better to leave it be and move on to things that matter more.

We cannot change anyone's heart. It's not our responsibility. We are merely seed planters in God's garden. We are not all harvesters.

Planting a seed doesn't mean you'll witness an immediate harvest. Sometimes another person will come along and witness the harvest that started with the seed you planted.

If you look out into the world today, you must surely see the signs. Jesus told us to love; not to just say you love, but to show your love; actions with no words that exemplify love of your enemies. This has always been so important and so often lost within the Church. And now, as time draws closer, it's even more so.

I'm pleading with all in this forum to see that this detail of how long creation exactly took, 6 days or 6 billion days, put it aside. Look out into our world as it is starting to burn as the birth pangs intensify as the time draws closer. Can we put this aside and instead start coming together to let our lights shine so those who don't believe can see our good works so our God can be glorified?

 

[Calminian]

I can understand your point, but if we simply "give up" on the Genesis 1, how much more would we be willing to give up on? We would have to deny the lineage written there that is the direct line from Adam to Jesus. We would have to deny that Adam was the first created man, and that through him death entered the world. If we deny that, then why did Jesus die? Death is not of God, which is why Jesus came to conquer it.

Well said. The issue, in actuality, is not thousands vs. billions of years at all. Those who reduce it to that, simply don't understand theology. The real issue is the points made above.

 

[Calminian]

Forgive me I know you're addressing someone else, but you touched on an issue I have some strong thoughts on. Please allow this interjection.

We cannot change anyone's heart. It's not our responsibility....

This is a major copout, and unfortunately used by Christians way too often.

God is the true Evangelist, to be sure, but who does He use to change hearts? Does he not use people? Christians often reach out to unbelievers in hospitality, in order to show them the love of God. Should they stop as it is not their responsibility to change hearts? My guess is you would say no, but why the inconsistency? Why only appeal to emotion, but not to the mind?

Of course it's God who changes hearts, but He uses obedient Christians who will reach out and appeal to both the mind and hearts of unbelievers. How God works that out in detail is not our concern. We just need to be obedient and diligent.

Planting a seed doesn't mean you'll witness an immediate harvest. Sometimes another person will come along and witness the harvest that started with the seed you planted.

Indeed. Sometimes one will till the soil before another plants. Sometimes cultivating needs to come before the harvest. And that cultivating may include appeals to emotions, logic or both.

If you look out into the world today, you must surely see the signs. Jesus told us to love; not to just say you love, but to show your love; actions with no words that exemplify love of your enemies. This has always been so important and so often lost within the Church. And now, as time draws closer, it's even more so.

Okay, but why the inconsistency? You said it's not our responsibility to change hearts, and I would assume, to be consistent, this would be by love or logic. Yet you cherry pick one over the other.

We are to love God with our hearts and mind. And we reach out to the unbelieving world with both love and logic, not jus love. By picking one and throwing out the other you're directly disobeying the words of Peter.

1Pet. 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;​

 

[Critias]

Forgive me I know you're addressing someone else, but you touched on an issue I have some strong thoughts on. Please allow this interjection.

I don't mind. No Forgiveness needed, for I hold no grievance towards you.

This is a major copout, and unfortunately used by Christians way too often.

God is the true Evangelist, to be sure, but who does He use to change hearts? Does he not use people? Christians often reach out to unbelievers in hospitality, in order to show them the love of God. Should they stop as it is not their responsibility to change hearts? My guess is you would say no, but why the inconsistency? Why only appeal to emotion, but not to the mind?

Of course it's God who changes hearts, but He uses obedient Christians who will reach out and appeal to both the mind and hearts of unbelievers. How God works that out in detail is not our concern. We just need to be obedient and diligent.

Indeed. Sometimes one will till the soil before another plants. Sometimes cultivating needs to come before the harvest. And that cultivating may include appeals to emotions, logic or both.

I think what I was expressing was misunderstood. I didn't mean you should be quiet and never speak. Quite the opposite actually. In the course of an argument, where the opposition will not budge, not matter what you say, it's fruitless to continue to argue the same topic.

I've spent years in this debate, on this very forum, with a lot of the same people here today. In the 5-7 years I've been in and out of this forum, I haven't seen many TE conversions to YEC, but I continue to see the same YEC still hammering the same topics that were hammered 5 years ago, with the same people, no one budging on their beliefs.

I'm sure this same debate, same topics, same people, has been going on much longer than I've seen it.

Okay, but why the inconsistency? You said it's not our responsibility to change hearts, and I would assume, to be consistent, this would be by love or logic. Yet you cherry pick one over the other.

I personally cannot equate arguments/debates with love. One almost always includes stubbornness, self-righteousness, selfishness, personal attacks, berating each other, etc. I know, I've been in those debates receiving it and dishing it out. I'm in no way blameless.

Love does not hammer you on the head until you accept what I am telling you. Love is the honey and arguments are the vinegar. Human nature will naturally be defensive when another person is telling them they are wrong. But Love, it brings down the defenses and allows you touch another's heart so that logic can then be effective.

I don't see this as "cherry-picking", but rather preferring to love another first and continually. Relationships (platonic) don't often start to well when you start telling the other how wrong they are and continue with that until they give up. Otherwise, we'd have many accounts of Jesus arguing instead of showing an amazingly amount of love to all. He didn't condemn, like arguments do, he loved. I'm pleading with you and all who read this to do the same, especially now as the world starts to burn. We don't need to start more fires in world where loves is decreasing. We need more love.

We are to love God with our hearts and mind. And we reach out to the unbelieving world with both love and logic, not jus love. By picking one and throwing out the other you're directly disobeying the words of Peter.

1Pet. 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;​

I didn't mean to insinuate that we must stop thinking and refuse to use the minds God gave us. Rather, I'm pleading to love FIRST and let that open their hearts.

 

[Smidlee]

I've spent years in this debate, on this very forum, with a lot of the same people here today. In the 5-7 years I've been in and out of this forum, I haven't seen many TE conversions to YEC, but I continue to see the same YEC still hammering the same topics that were hammered 5 years ago, with the same people, no one budging on their beliefs.

I'm sure this same debate, same topics, same people, has been going on much longer than I've seen it.

People have different motives. I don't expect to win over any TE or even atheist but I do hope I can be an encouragement to other creationist from time to time. I do like science and still believe in creation. I often find Mark's post interesting.

 

[Calminian]

..... In the course of an argument, where the opposition will not budge, not matter what you say, it's fruitless to continue to argue the same topic.

It's not fruitless though, if the person you're talking to drives you to think, and refine your view, and refine your understanding of scripture. My goal is not to convert my opponents here per se, but rather to learn the finer points of this debate. For me, it is primarily in the area of theology and biblical interpretation (not so much the scientific debate).

The truth is, I've learned a lot about Genesis engaging in these debates, and as a result can convey the topic much better to others. It's been a blessing for me, and for others.

I personally cannot equate arguments/debates with love. One almost always includes stubbornness, self-righteousness, selfishness, personal attacks, berating each other, etc. I know, I've been in those debates receiving it and dishing it out. I'm in no way blameless.

Well if you're accusing someone here of that, then be specific. It may well be that some here are like that. I know I can be all the above at times. But that's not the the fault of defending the faith, or the forum. That's just my fault. If you stuck around, perhaps you could hold people accountable to a certain extent. That would be fine. Just send me a PM if you think I crossed some line.

Love does not hammer you on the head until you accept what I am telling you. Love is the honey and arguments are the vinegar. Human nature will naturally be defensive when another person is telling them they are wrong. But Love, it brings down the defenses and allows you touch another's heart so that logic can then be effective.

You mean like you're doing now? You're going to sit here and hammer all of us saying we're unloving for defending scripture, while you hammer your opinion? How are you any different?

I don't see this as "cherry-picking", but rather preferring to love another first and continually. ....

Well, you're saying that you only want to appeal to peoples emotions by showing them love, but not to their minds. That is cherry picking. For on one hand you're saying that it is not our responsibility to change hearts, but then you appeal to peoples emotions to do just that (or perhaps hoping the Lord will use it). Yet if someone wants to appeal to someone's mind, you accuse them of being unloving? That's utterly absurd, not to mention unbiblical.

You and I would both agree that God is the real Evangelist. He speaks to the heart and wins souls. And you and I would also agree he uses human instruments.

Now for me, personally, God used an apologetic ministry to change my heart. That's how I was reached, and there are thousands like me. And there are others who were reached by God by different means. But I would surmise that in today's world, stumbling blocks to the mind are much more typical than emotional stumbling blocks, and therefore I cannot fathom why you would think it necessary as Bible believing christians to abandon a forum like this.

 

[mark kennedy]

People have different motives. I don't expect to win over any TE or even atheist but I do hope I can be an encouragement to other creationist from time to time. I do like science and still believe in creation. I often find Mark's post interesting.

I stopped researching and studying the scientific literature some years ago. Most of the time I start the discussion off with something I know the evolutionist can't deny and won't admit. It doesn't matter what it is as much as, it must be something they can't deny and refuse to admit. I worked out the apologetics issues before I started in on Origins, the clear testimony of Genesis and the witness of the New Testament regarding creation is unmistakable.

What I am interested in isn't evolutionary biology, Darwinians deny empirical facts and TEs are contrary to, or silent on doctrine. Inevitably the focus will be personal because our faith is not empirical, we walk by faith not sight. It may or may not be religious so doctrine is seldom the heart of the emphasis. It really comes down to two things, a revelation and a relationship. As many atheists and agnostics as I have engaged, not one has asked me about the 'Creator', if they know nothing about Him then why aren't they curious?

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.(John 1:9-13)​

Creation, the Incarnation, the Resurrection and being born of the Spirit are all the same miracle. God doing what only God can do. I don't tell them things that they need to know, I try to remind them of what every man that comes into the world already knows.

More then anything else, what I study on these boards isn't science or religion, what I am really curious about is the evolutionist.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Coelo]

As many atheists and agnostics as I have engaged, not one has asked me about the 'Creator', if they know nothing about Him then why aren't they curious?

Interesting that there are people that devote their lives to the study of God's Creation. It is difficult for me to believe that they would not want to know something about the Creator. They may spend their whole life to gather evidence and never realize the wisdom God has for us in that evidence. Even though they get excited about creation, they never develop a love for the Creator.

 

[SkyWriting]

Theologically, if Adam and Eve were not responsible for our being sinners it would solve a ton of theological problems for me. I mean I was never comfortable with being made a sinner before I was born, it never seemed fair.

It's not that you were deemed a sinner before birth.

The original creation was "Heaven".

God walked with Adam in the Garden. This means the garden was not like we know gardens on earth today.
God was there, it was "heaven." Then Adam choose to do something OTHER THAN GOD's will.

Anything other than God's will is Sin.
So, God banished Adam from the Garden.
Here is the turning point:
From that moment on, all children are born INTO a sinful world.
It's not that we "Sin". It that our entire environment is out of connection with God's will.
Everything you see is Sin. The only redeeming aspect we have left is to TRUST in God for our
salvation from this place.

Allow the Creator to accept all our Sin and forgive us.
It's not really 'forgive those few sins that we think are really bad"
It's "Please wash us of our sin condition."