Concealed carry nabs criminal duo in Chicago

[ThatRobGuy]

I am a bit torn on this issue.

On one hand, I'm former military, I have a gun in my home, I "sometimes" carry a gun on my person (legally), and I am a firm believer in the 2nd amendment and my right to carry.

On the other hand, the data the UK and Australia has is compelling.

Maybe the Czech Rep has a model that is a good compromise. Regardless, as someone who likes to look at facts, evidence, and data... I can't deny the data from the UK.

UK has similar culture, similar demographics, similar economy. So I just can't overlook their stats.

But like I sort of touched on before, it's important to consider all stats, and not just bits and pieces.

In terms of numbers pertaining to homicide rates, the Czech Republic is every bit as safe as the UK and Australia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Czech Republic: 0.9
Australia: 1.1
UK: 1.0

When considering the data from the UK as well, we need to consider historical data to see if there is truly a cause/effect relationship rate between their very tight gun legislation, and their low murder rate.

Luckily, the UK does publish their historical crime data on their government website:
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/historical-crime-data

They passed 2 pretty sweeping gun control efforts, one in the late 80's that banned magazine fed shotguns, and assault rifles...and then another in the mid-90's that banned handguns, and severely restricted sporting/hunting long guns.

If we look at their homicides at a couple different points in history:
1975: 600
1985: 616
1995: 745
2005: 764

There were population increases during those time windows, so the rate remained virtually the same. ...with that said, I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that England's low murder rate (which they should be proud of) is result of their gun control measures. The data shows that the UK is a pretty peaceful civil country that has a low murder rate, and has had that low murder rate for nearly half of a century now.


To say that the UK has a similar culture & economy may be somewhat true at a high level, however, when you start looking at the granular information, they have some sharp differences in certain aspects pertaining to opportunity for advancement and income inequality (two things we know have a direct correlation to crime rates).

 

[ThatRobGuy]

As long as you understand the risk. Is your life worth $100.00?

For me personally, I tend to steer clear of neighborhoods where that is likely to happen if at all possible, I also try to avoid carrying cash on me unless I have two (it's easy enough to make a phone call and cancel a credit card if that gets stolen and they'll refund any charges).

If something like that did happen to me, my response would depend on a few different factors. If they've got the muzzle up against my head and their finger on the trigger...then obviously no, I'm not going to attempt some sort of Chuck Norris move on them. However, if it's a scenario like the video I posted of the internet cafe incident in Florida, that might be a different story.

...or if they're attempting to rob me with a weapon other than a gun. For example, if a thug armed with a switch blade says "give me the money", it's a pretty safe bet that they're not getting the money.

 

[Butterfly99]

Yes, I think this is the way to handle it. I used to actually work for T-Mobile (and AT&T) and provided training to the workers in their stores. Number one rule when being robbed - just give ANYTHING they ask for. They usually just want money or maybe merchandise. Give it to them. And DO NOT try to be a hero, DO NOT try to fight back.

A couple other guys on this thread brought up a good point that while the clerk may have been willing to give up money or merchandise he also had his life (and other people's lives I believe) in danger and since he had a means and good opportunity to protect himself and the others he fought back. I still don't think it's the right move, I agree with "give them whatever they want" as you described, at the same time I kind of can't blame someone who has a gun for using it in that situation. So I think I overreacted a bit but my initial reaction was based on what the RIGHT thing to do is which is to never risk your life as a hero by refusing to give up money or merch.

Yep. The teacher said that 7-11 has stores all over the world, including in many countries where citizens owning guns is far more rare than in the US. Stores in every country have been robbed. The reason they train employees everywhere to just cooperate with robbers, hand over what is asked for, to stay as calm as possible, & never play the hero is that is has shown to be the safest by far. A different teacher said that Apple made is so that their phones become bricks after they're stolen (you have to have the Apple ID and password to use them) to cut down on thefts. The theft itself was of course a big deal but the way huger issue was that people were getting hurt. When someone tried to steal their phone they'd fight back & get hurt in the process. It's why my parents taught me that if anyone tries to steal my phone, my car, whatever, hand it over without a fight cause I'm more important than my stuff.

Someone posted this screenshot of a comment on Twitter. It's from an article about the Chicago robbery we're talking about here.

 

[Darkhorse]

What would your teacher say about this?


Colorado Campus Carry: 12 Years, No Mass Shootings, No Crimes by Permit Holders
by AWR Hawkins 20 Apr 2015

On April 20, The Washington Post ran a column showing that campus carry has been the law of the land in Colorado since 2003, and the results have not been anything like those currently fighting against campus carry claim it should be.

There have been no mass shootings and, apart from one incident in which a gun was accidentally discharged by a Colorado University employee, there have been no crimes by permit holders.

No one was injured in the accidental discharge, and the employee was fired.

The success of campus carry in Colorado is especially good news for women, who are able to level the playing field by being armed and better able to defend their dignity when under sexual attack.

WaPo explains:

"The U.S. Census Bureau conducts in-person interviews with several thousand persons annually, for the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). In 1992-2002, over 2,000 of the persons interviewed disclosed they had been raped or sexually assaulted. Of them, only 26 volunteered that they used a weapon to resist. In none of those 26 cases was the rape completed; in none of the cases did the victim suffer additional injury after she deployed her weapon."

So, in the 26 assaults in which a woman had access to a weapon, she was able to stop the rape and was not further assaulted.

Moreover, WaPo expounded on the NCVS results by including an in-depth study by Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck.

Kleck “conducted a much broader examination of NCVS data. Analyzing a data set of 27,595 attempted violent crimes and 16 types of protective actions, Kleck found that resisting with a gun greatly lowered the risk of the victim being injured, or of the crime being completed.”

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...o-mass-shootings-no-crimes-by-permit-holders/

http://tinyurl.com/pyv63ok

 

[Butterfly99]

What would your teacher say about this?


Colorado Campus Carry: 12 Years, No Mass Shootings, No Crimes by Permit Holders
by AWR Hawkins 20 Apr 2015

On April 20, The Washington Post ran a column showing that campus carry has been the law of the land in Colorado since 2003, and the results have not been anything like those currently fighting against campus carry claim it should be.

There have been no mass shootings and, apart from one incident in which a gun was accidentally discharged by a Colorado University employee, there have been no crimes by permit holders.

No one was injured in the accidental discharge, and the employee was fired.

The success of campus carry in Colorado is especially good news for women, who are able to level the playing field by being armed and better able to defend their dignity when under sexual attack.

WaPo explains:

"The U.S. Census Bureau conducts in-person interviews with several thousand persons annually, for the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS). In 1992-2002, over 2,000 of the persons interviewed disclosed they had been raped or sexually assaulted. Of them, only 26 volunteered that they used a weapon to resist. In none of those 26 cases was the rape completed; in none of the cases did the victim suffer additional injury after she deployed her weapon."

So, in the 26 assaults in which a woman had access to a weapon, she was able to stop the rape and was not further assaulted.

Moreover, WaPo expounded on the NCVS results by including an in-depth study by Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck.

Kleck “conducted a much broader examination of NCVS data. Analyzing a data set of 27,595 attempted violent crimes and 16 types of protective actions, Kleck found that resisting with a gun greatly lowered the risk of the victim being injured, or of the crime being completed.”

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...o-mass-shootings-no-crimes-by-permit-holders/

http://tinyurl.com/pyv63ok

Well for one he'd probably tell me to not invest my time debating with a stranger on an internet forum who uses Breitbart as a source.

 

[Darkhorse]

The source was the Washington Post; Breitbart just referenced it.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Well for one he'd probably tell me to not invest my time debating with a stranger on an internet forum who uses Breitbart as a source.

When you keep referring to this teacher...may I ask if we're talking about a high school teacher or college instructor?, and what course do they teach? (sorry if you mentioned this in a prior post)

The reason I ask (and it's not meant to be disrespectful) is that I know when people are younger (and I was guilty of this myself about 11-12 years ago when I was in college), they tend to put more weight in the statements of college professors.

It's important to keep in mind that anecdotal evidence is not evidence, the fact that it's coming from a teacher/professor doesn't give it any additional merit.

I'm not trying to single you out on this matter...many people (from both sides of the political fence) fall in this trap when it comes to teachers, clergy, and celebrities.

 

[HannahT]

The articles I read really didn't give enough information about what actually happened inside those stores. It was all very generic.

So, people can speculate as to what they would do - or wouldn't go until the cows come home.

Some circumstances I would want the concealed carry to shoot, and in others I would not.

 

[myownmynativeland]

Wow, the T-Mobile employee sure earned his <$15/hr. when he risked his life to defend the T-Mobile stores valuable cache of a few new phones and accessories and worthless unactivated gift cards! lol, what an idiot. I'm sure he saved T-Mobile from going out of business! lol

or maybe he just saved his own life..................

 

[ArmenianJohn]

or maybe he just saved his own life..................

Maybe, but probably not

 

[myownmynativeland]

Wow, IF that were true then good thing he risked his own life to make sure fewer armed robbers will go to T-mobile's stores when even T-Mobile doesn't care enough about it to have armed guards! He's an extra-stupid idiot! I wonder what T-Mobile will give him for this? Probably a nice pat on the back and some positive words! lol

However, I don't believe that this will even lessen robberies at T-Mobile stores, so he risked his life for some cheap products which aren't his and that T-Mobile doesn't even care about guarding with firearms.

Couple of questions- why are you mocking people for defending themselves. Also what is this with the arabic 'N' you use for an avatar? https://www.google.com/search?q=ara...awSGFPKtM:&usg=__hd5_mkC0wc0NqzG81-C4-i9Pbwk=

That is an ISIS symbol.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Couple of questions- why are you mocking people for defending themselves.

Go and read my subsequent posts and you will understand my view more fully and what I was mocking more fully. If you still have questions after that (and it's clear to me that you did read my subsequent posts) I'll be glad to answer further questions.

Also what is this with the arabic 'N' you use for an avatar? https://www.google.com/search?q=arabic+N&tbm=isch&imgil=iEr3vawSGFPKtM%3A%3BaSr_GhjowYtOUM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fdavemiers.com%252Farabic-nazarene%252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=iEr3vawSGFPKtM%3A%2CaSr_GhjowYtOUM%2C_&biw=1366&bih=631&usg=__hd5_mkC0wc0NqzG81-C4-i9Pbwk=&ved=0ahUKEwiB_rGTq7HKAhXKNiYKHVC4DVoQyjcIKA&ei=v8qbVsGiDsrtmAHQ8LbQBQ#imgrc=iEr3vawSGFPKtM:&usg=__hd5_mkC0wc0NqzG81-C4-i9Pbwk=

That is an ISIS symbol.

Reread the link that you provided me and you'll have your answer.

 

[myownmynativeland]

I wonder what the statistics are for people in stores being killed by robbers, when they have no weapons.
This is one thing that can only be prevented by being armed and taking the battle to the robbers. I recall a store in my city where someone came in and stole stuff out of a jewelry case and killed the store clerk with a gun. The clerk was unarmed and nobody was able to stop him from getting away because the closest person to him was the dead clerk. Sometimes shooting the other guy first saves your life.

In my City there was a fast food place a few years back where three or four teens and an early twenty were cleaning up on a Saturday night. Two thugs came in got the $100 in the till and THEN killed everyone before leaving. This was back when schools/media/cops were pushing the 'Not resisting is safest' meme.

 

[myownmynativeland]

Go and read my subsequent posts and you will understand my view more fully and what I was mocking more fully. If you still have questions after that (and it's clear to me that you did read my subsequent posts) I'll be glad to answer further questions.


Reread the link that you provided me and you'll have your answer.

I read the LINK and even before that I knew what your avatar is connected to. It is VERY offensive.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

I read the LINK and even before that I knew what your avatar is connected to. It is VERY offensive.

The link you provided me is a google image search results page which has one image selected and that image's link right next to it. If you follow THAT link the page it goes to explains what it is.

What is offensive is what you are saying to me and you might realize that after you do your due diligence in researching what the symbol means for a middle eastern Christian like me. I don't take offense only because I can see that you're very ignorant on this issue.

 

[Sophrosyne]

In my City there was a fast food place a few years back where three or four teens and an early twenty were cleaning up on a Saturday night. Two thugs came in got the $100 in the till and THEN killed everyone before leaving. This was back when schools/media/cops were pushing the 'Not resisting is safest' meme.

There have been stores in parts of town closed for good because of a lot of robberies. It only takes one death in a robbery at a store to put so much fear into the employees there to cause most to flee to safer jobs. There is a store near me that has an off duty police officer in it and he is armed due to robberies there.

 

[myownmynativeland]

But like I sort of touched on before, it's important to consider all stats, and not just bits and pieces.

In terms of numbers pertaining to homicide rates, the Czech Republic is every bit as safe as the UK and Australia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Czech Republic: 0.9
Australia: 1.1
UK: 1.0

When considering the data from the UK as well, we need to consider historical data to see if there is truly a cause/effect relationship rate between their very tight gun legislation, and their low murder rate.

Luckily, the UK does publish their historical crime data on their government website:
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/historical-crime-data

They passed 2 pretty sweeping gun control efforts, one in the late 80's that banned magazine fed shotguns, and assault rifles...and then another in the mid-90's that banned handguns, and severely restricted sporting/hunting long guns.

If we look at their homicides at a couple different points in history:
1975: 600
1985: 616
1995: 745
2005: 764

There were population increases during those time windows, so the rate remained virtually the same. ...with that said, I don't think there's any evidence to suggest that England's low murder rate (which they should be proud of) is result of their gun control measures. The data shows that the UK is a pretty peaceful civil country that has a low murder rate, and has had that low murder rate for nearly half of a century now.


To say that the UK has a similar culture & economy may be somewhat true at a high level, however, when you start looking at the granular information, they have some sharp differences in certain aspects pertaining to opportunity for advancement and income inequality (two things we know have a direct correlation to crime rates).

When the population of the USA is broken down by place of ethnic origin each group's rate of violent crime rather closely parallels that of their stay at home cousins. One might also point out that the two Nations with the tightest restrictions on weapons in the hands of the subjects (Japan and the UK), restrictions which long precede the arrival of firearms have just about the worst histories in the world of centuries of aggressive genocidal foreign aggression.

 

[myownmynativeland]

The link you provided me is a google image search results page which has one image selected and that image's link right next to it. If you follow THAT link the page it goes to explains what it is.

What is offensive is what you are saying to me and you might realize that after you do your due diligence in researching what the symbol means for a middle eastern Christian like me. I don't take offense only because I can see that you're very ignorant on this issue.

Do you DENY that the arabic 'N' (your avatar) is what ISIS painted on the homes of Christians in Mosul during their ethnic cleansing there?

 

[CyberPaladin]

These robbers had guns in their hands (read the story) when they were shot; how was the employee able to shoot them , without getting shot?

Probably more then one employee.That's the thing I've always really concealed carry it requires training and doesn't draw attention if done right.

 

[Butterfly99]

When you keep referring to this teacher...may I ask if we're talking about a high school teacher or college instructor?, and what course do they teach? (sorry if you mentioned this in a prior post)

The reason I ask (and it's not meant to be disrespectful) is that I know when people are younger (and I was guilty of this myself about 11-12 years ago when I was in college), they tend to put more weight in the statements of college professors.

It's important to keep in mind that anecdotal evidence is not evidence, the fact that it's coming from a teacher/professor doesn't give it any additional merit.

I'm not trying to single you out on this matter...many people (from both sides of the political fence) fall in this trap when it comes to teachers, clergy, and celebrities.

High school. He's my Relativity, Electrodynamics, & Quantum Mechanics teacher. I'm only giving a tiny bit of the conversation here, cause tbh I really don't see the point in writing out lengthy posts on this topic. I have a solid reason for trusting the logic of what he has to say. It was not purely anecdotal evidence. He gave way more than that. We actually got into the physics of things, too, lol. He's also far from being the only one to talk about this & give facts and reasoning for it. I just mentioned him cause we had literally just talked about it. Yes, I do put more trust into people I know in my real life who are trustworthy & knowledgeable than strangers on internet forums.