Communion for Divorced and Remarried Couples?

[mark46]

Yes, we have people whose spouse divorced them and married someone else. The Church would have this person never have sexual relations again. There are no options if the person doing the divorcing has no interest in going through the process of annulment.
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And just BTW, in the US, annulments are really Catholic divorces. They are common, and are given to folks who don't meet the Church's recommendations. So, the Church has made accommodations to couples who are willing to go through the process and have the cooperation of both.
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BOTTOM LINE
For me, in the US, this issues isn't about the sanctity of marriage. Annulments are much too easy to get for that to be the case.

 

[Rhamiel]

Yes, we have people whose spouse divorced them and married someone else. The Church would have this person never have sexual relations again. There are no options if the person doing the divorcing has no interest in going through the process of annulment.
==
And just BTW, in the US, annulments are really Catholic divorces. They are common, and are given to folks who don't meet the Church's recommendations. So, the Church has made accommodations to couples who are willing to go through the process and have the cooperation of both.
===
BOTTOM LINE
For me, in the US, this issues isn't about the sanctity of marriage. Annulments are much too easy to get for that to be the case.

maybe the great number of annulments being granted is merely a reflection of the state of the Church? with over a generation of poor catechism, poor sacramental prep, and a culture that has a contraceptive mentality (having no intention of having a child would be proper grounds for granting an annulment)

I thought it was possible to get an annulment even if one of the parties was unwilling to participate in the procedure
though that does make it more difficult?

 

[mark46]

Perhaps, but I know folks that have been told that this was not possible.

 

[MKJ]

maybe the great number of annulments being granted is merely a reflection of the state of the Church? with over a generation of poor catechism, poor sacramental prep, and a culture that has a contraceptive mentality (having no intention of having a child would be proper grounds for granting an annulment)

I thought it was possible to get an annulment even if one of the parties was unwilling to participate in the procedure
though that does make it more difficult?

It is possible to get one this way. But of course it isn't guaranteed, just like any other application.

 

[Gnarwhal]

While we're on the subject of annulments, if I were to get one... would I have to involve my ex-wife? She's remarried and moved to a nearby town, it might be kind of difficult to arrange it. She's also pretty closed-minded about Catholic stuff and would probably snub me.

 

[MKJ]

I think the difficulty here is that there has been a pretty solid argument for a long time that the sacrament, if it really happens, can't somehow break down, and there is no allowance for doing something like remarrying anyway as in the OC through economia.

Annulments aren't about binding and loosing, they are about making a determination that the sacrament never happened.

It is not the case that non-Catholic marriages are not valid, so divored people who become Catholic have no worries about this. Someone who was married and divorced before becoming Catholic must get a decision about the first marriage and then have the second one "redone," and is supposed to remain celibate until all that happens. Though if they have a family they are normally expected to carry on in other parts f family life. Many people do not remain celibete and simply to not communicate until their situation is regularized.

I think though that even within the peramaters that teh CC has set, there is a lot of room to ask - how is it that what constitutes an invalid marriage will be determined? Is it even possible to really do this with any kind of confidence? I think that it is very hard, unless you are going to be quite strickt about allowing annulments only for very obvious things like fraud or impairment, to show that it is possible with confidence. Once you start talking about people's states of mind and maturity upon marriage, I think you are not going to have a sure result. And that is assuming everyone is being honest, not only externally but with themselves.

In a lot of non-Catholic churches, although they call it divorce, I think what is really happening when the question of remarriage comes before the elders or bishop or pastor, is that they are making a determination that the marriage was never "valid" based on the results, rather than trying to determine precisely the initial conditions.

In any case, I think it would be difficult to argue such a change is impossible - history shows people often say things are unchangeable and then there are looked at or treated differently. The practicl handing of divorce has been done differently in the past - just look at the medival system of annulments for the nobility - it was entirely utilitarian. Or the allowance for NFP which many argued was an impossible change because it clearly went against the earlier teaching of the Church. So I would be unwilling to say that a similar reframing of the question of marriage after divorce could not happen - and so often it is the way the question is framed that determines the type of answers that come.

 

[Tallguy88]

While we're on the subject of annulments, if I were to get one... would I have to involve my ex-wife? She's remarried and moved to a nearby town, it might be kind of difficult to arrange it. She's also pretty closed-minded about Catholic stuff and would probably snub me.

It can happen without the other spouses consent. You'd just need to talk to a Catholic priest about it. It might be easier since you were Protestant when martied. Was she a Catholic when you married? Or were you both always (at least nominally, if not practicing) Protestants?

 

[MKJ]

While we're on the subject of annulments, if I were to get one... would I have to involve my ex-wife? She's remarried and moved to a nearby town, it might be kind of difficult to arrange it. She's also pretty closed-minded about Catholic stuff and would probably snub me.

You wouldn't necessarily have to but it might be tricky. That is assuming there is nothing really obvious that would make it a simple case.

 

[Rhamiel]

While we're on the subject of annulments, if I were to get one... would I have to involve my ex-wife? She's remarried and moved to a nearby town, it might be kind of difficult to arrange it. She's also pretty closed-minded about Catholic stuff and would probably snub me.

yeah, you would have to involve your wife
it is like the in the justice system, a person has a right to a trail before they can be found guilty
well she has the right to be heard on this matter before her marriage is considered invalid

though, if the person refuses to participate, I think you can still get an annulment anyways
just btw, were both of you baptized?

 

[Gnarwhal]

It can happen without the other spouses consent. You'd just need to talk to a Catholic priest about it. It might be easier since you were Protestant when martied. Was she a Catholic when you married? Or were you both always (at least nominally, if not practicing) Protestants?

We've both only ever been Protestants, and in hindsight I'm unsure whether the guy who married us is an ordained minister. He's associated with the IHOP movement (my ex has a pentecostal/charismatic background).

You wouldn't necessarily have to but it might be tricky. That is assuming there is nothing really obvious that would make it a simple case.

Well there weren't any issues of infidelity, so it's not clear cut in that sense. Assuming the Catholic Church even sees it that way...

yeah, you would have to involve your wife
it is like the in the justice system, a person has a right to a trail before they can be found guilty
well she has the right to be heard on this matter before her marriage is considered invalid

though, if the person refuses to participate, I think you can still get an annulment anyways
just btw, were both of you baptized?

Yes, we were both baptized (Trinitarian, immersion... if it matters? IIRC, she was baptized in someones doughboy pool when she was ~13, I became a Christian at age 4 but wasn't baptized until 21, and I was baptized in my church).

If a spouse is remarried to someone else, does the Church take that into consideration when weighing whether or not they needs to be involved?

 

[Rhamiel]

water, Trinitarian, person wants to be Christian
yep valid Baptism

even if the person is remarried, they are still needed, I am like 90% sure, but I am a single layman, you really need to talk to a priest about this kinda stuff, or a cannon lawyer

 

[Gnarwhal]

water, Trinitarian, person wants to be Christian
yep valid Baptism

even if the person is remarried, they are still needed, I am like 90% sure, but I am a single layman, you really need to talk to a priest about this kinda stuff, or a cannon lawyer

I think I will, this has been something I've been curious about for quite some time.

 

[frenchdefense]

Basically this. I don't see why Confession doesn't absolve the sin of divorce and remarriage, especially when the divorce was the other person's fault/desire. The current system punishes the innocent party as much as the guilty party.

It isn't the divorce and remarriage that's the sin in question.

It the sex remarried people are having after the remarriage that's at question.

Since the remarried people aren't going to give up the sex there is the whole issue of truly contrite heart.

 

[MKJ]

We've both only ever been Protestants, and in hindsight I'm unsure whether the guy who married us is an ordained minister. He's associated with the IHOP movement (my ex has a pentecostal/charismatic background).


Well there weren't any issues of infidelity, so it's not clear cut in that sense. Assuming the Catholic Church even sees it that way...


Yes, we were both baptized (Trinitarian, immersion... if it matters? IIRC, she was baptized in someones doughboy pool when she was ~13, I became a Christian at age 4 but wasn't baptized until 21, and I was baptized in my church).

If a spouse is remarried to someone else, does the Church take that into consideration when weighing whether or not they needs to be involved?

It doesn't matter if she was remarried, or if there was infidelity after, unless the person had planned to be unfaithful from the start. It also doesn't matter who married you, since neither of you were ever Catholic - a civil marriage is valid for non-Catholics.

There are a few ways it could be "simple". One is if either of you were Catholic and married outside the Catholic Church. Another is if one of you weren't baptized (though in that case it is not an annulment but an actual dissolution of the marriage.) Another is something really basic, like bigamy or fraud or perhaps drunkenness or mental illness that can be shown easily, or a shot0gun marriage with a lot of pressure.

Essentially, what you are trying to do is show that the marriage never had the proper elements to be a valid sacramental marriage. It is all about what happened before the wedding and at the wedding - nothing after that matters.

That means that one or both of you was not really able or willing to consent to the contract aspect of the marriage. So you might say that one or both never really intended to take the vows seriously, you were too immature to know what marriage really ones, you did not actually understand what marriage was. Something like that. As you can see this is all kind of ephemeral stuff and really is likely to be about your state of mind. And of course no one is really mature or knows what he is getting into etc etc, so it is hard to say where the line is.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

because the sin is ongoing
like I can not go to confession WHILE I am still stabbing someone to death

"oh yes father, I am very sorry for stabbing that poor fellow"
"he's still stabbing me!"
"shut up you"

that's not how confession works

Different, but similar...

An alcoholic or a drug addict get intoxicated on a regular basis, and as would be expected acts like an ass when it happens. He goes to confession, is absolved, receives the Eucharist, and two days later falls again. The cycle repeats.

How about a guy who for what ever reasons is divorced and is currently living a celibate life, has repented of what ever his part was in the failed marriage, meets someone, falls in love, and wishes to remarry. Church says no.

I know someone in this very position; but in his case, his priest knows the circumstances and admits him to the Eucharist, which is officially against the practices of the Church.

Should there not be some "Pastoral Discretion" regarding the Eucharist?

 

[Rhamiel]

Different, but similar...

An alcoholic or a drug addict get intoxicated on a regular basis, and as would be expected acts like an ass when it happens. He goes to confession, is absolved, receives the Eucharist, and two days later falls again. The cycle repeats.

How about a guy who for what ever reasons is divorced and is currently living a celibate life, has repented of what ever his part was in the failed marriage, meets someone, falls in love, and wishes to remarry. Church says no.

I know someone in this very position; but in his case, his priest knows the circumstances and admits him to the Eucharist, which is officially against the practices of the Church.

Should there not be some "Pastoral Discretion" regarding the Eucharist?

wait, in this scenario is the person living as a celibate single person or did he take a second wife against the teachings of Church and the Bible?

 

[MKJ]

Different, but similar...

An alcoholic or a drug addict get intoxicated on a regular basis, and as would be expected acts like an ass when it happens. He goes to confession, is absolved, receives the Eucharist, and two days later falls again. The cycle repeats.

How about a guy who for what ever reasons is divorced and is currently living a celibate life, has repented of what ever his part was in the failed marriage, meets someone, falls in love, and wishes to remarry. Church says no.

I know someone in this very position; but in his case, his priest knows the circumstances and admits him to the Eucharist, which is officially against the practices of the Church.

Should there not be some "Pastoral Discretion" regarding the Eucharist?

Or you could compare it perhaps even more closely with something like a methadone program. Or even people who get surgery to help with weight loss.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Well, regardless of band analogies, some sort of sin caused the separation/divorce in the first place. One can use the argument that if 'your hand causes you to sin, cut it off'. It is also my opinion that while the Churches is to loose and bind, it does so with grace an mercy, so it's business is forgiveness. Despite the evil of the world, the Church, on behalf of our Lord Jesus Christ forgives far more than it excommunicates. The Church has set before it Christ and the woman at the well who had "many Husbands". One could argue that "go and sin no more" means to remain celibate, but since it's unspecified, and God does not want us to guess about important stuff, then we may also speculate that she when home to her current man and became and remained faithful in her current relationship.