Colin Kaepernick sits during National Anthem

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Albion

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He is lending visible support to an issue, that is quite important, much like the press conference held by Muhammad Ali, Bill Russell, Jim Brown, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Willie Davis in opposition to the Vietnam War. Given how corporatized sports has become, it's a wonder anyone is making their voice heard, especially considering how the athletes in the WNBA were threatened. .
On the other hand, it may be nothing more noble than doing what pleases his girlfriend/wife.
 
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redleghunter

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If that oath were taken seriously most likely the military would turn on their own government.
One would hope that with the right to vote any "uprising" would be the peaceful ballot box.
 
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Albion

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I never heard of the hand over heart for the national anthem, that's a new thing, which is why it's odd people are trying to enforce this non-tradition.
Did this arise because some public figure was seen standing at attention while everyone else in line had his hand over his heart? Although not of the same importance, that was an "issue" with candidates not wearing a flag pin during the last election. IOW, it raised suspicion, logically or illogically, about the beliefs of the person in question although it wasn't actually a violation of any code.
 
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redleghunter

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He is lending visible support to an issue, that is quite important, much like the press conference held by Muhammad Ali, Bill Russell, Jim Brown, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Willie Davis in opposition to the Vietnam War. Given how corporatized sports has become, it's a wonder anyone is making their voice heard, especially considering how the athletes in the WNBA were threatened. Moreover, how do you know he is not doing more? You've just noticed this action by him, but he's spoken out on issues before.

A movement requires more than a Mother Teresa or someone "going green," it requires policy changes. You complain about Al Gore traveling around the world, but his goal is policy change, which will do more to stem the issues of climate change than not flying in a plane. The goal is not no pollution, it is to change the overall level of pollution, saying his world travel is causing significant pollution is a specious argument. People working on climate change know that encouraging people to use energy saving bulbs in meaningless when they derive all their energy from coal.

Someone mentioned Michael Jordan, but I don't see how he really took a stand on anything. He gave money to a police organization that studies issues and makes policy suggestions to police departments; I don't think the problem requires more study, we know the issue and we know the solutions that work. Likewise, he gave money to the NAACP Legal Defense Fund, which is not working on the issue of police brutality, they're working on an array of issues, but his money would have been better used directed at a group directly working on the problem, like a local chapter of Black Lives Matter. The reality is Jordan gave a corporate statement that doesn't really address the issue and gave money to organizations not directly working on the problem. While these organizations both do good work, and it's good to see someone support their endeavors, let's not pretend as if his actions has any relation to stemming issues of police brutality.

But I agree, more action solidifies your standing on speaking out. But sometimes just standing up is enough, Tommie Smith, Peter Norman and John Carlos were instrumental to movements on human rights. While I don't think his actions rise to the level of Tommie Smith et al., it is not meaningless. I would argue that ad hominem attacks saying an athlete is washed up shows a certain lack of maturity because that is simply lashing out at someone you disagree with.
He may be doing just what you say. Kap also has terrible numbers and has been subpar since his super bowl appearance.
 
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redleghunter

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I never heard of the hand over heart for the national anthem, that's a new thing, which is why it's odd people are trying to enforce this non-tradition.
The only tradition I know of is from my military service. We "present arms" (salute) during the National anthem. Veterans out of uniform place their hand over their heart.
 
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SummerMadness

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Did this arise because some public figure was seen standing at attention while everyone else in line had his hand over his heart? Although not of the same importance, that was an "issue" with candidates not wearing a flag pin during the last election. IOW, it raised suspicion, logically or illogically, about the beliefs of the person in question although it wasn't actually a violation of any code.
You'll need to be clear on what you mean. Hand over your heart for the national anthem is not something I ever heard of, are you suggesting the candidate started this tradition or attacks on the candidate started a tradition to attack him/her?
 
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Tallguy88

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He may be doing just what you say. Kap also has terrible numbers and has been subpar since his super bowl appearance.
Exactly. He's gotta get his name in the papers somehow. His performance on the field certainly isn't cutting it.
 
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Tallguy88

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You'll need to be clear on what you mean. Hand over your heart for the national anthem is not something I ever heard of, are you suggesting the candidate started this tradition or attacks on the candidate started a tradition to attack him/her?
I've always stood facing the flag for the anthem. But I don't believe there is uniformity on whether to put your hand over your heart. If I'm wearing a hat, I take it off and put it over my heart.
 
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redleghunter

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Veterans Can Now Salute During National Anthem
Thursday, November 6, 2008

Veterans and active-duty service-members not in uniform can now render the hand salute during the playing of our national anthem, thanks to changes in federal law that took effect this month. The legislative change was sponsored by Sen. Jim Inhofe, R-OK, an Army veteran, and included in the Defense Authorization Act of 2009.


The new provision improves upon a little-known change in federal law last year (2008) that authorized veterans to render the hand salute during the raising, lowering or passing of the flag. However, it did not address salutes during the national anthem. Last year's provision also applied to members of the armed forces while not in uniform.

The American Legion has opposed the saluting of the U.S. Flag when it is being raised, lowered or is in passing by those who are not in uniform. At its National Convention in Phoenix last August, the Legion passed a resolution against the practice, saying that it "causes confusion leading to breaches of flag etiquette with regard to proper conduct during the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance."

Furthermore, the Legion is concerned that salutes from veterans and service-members out of uniform will be imitated by the general public as the proper way to honor the U.S. Flag and/or national anthem. In responding to numerous phone calls and e-mails on the issue, the Legion's Americanism Commission offers this advice: "The law does allow veterans to render the right hand salute, but does not mandate it. If you feel uncomfortable in any situation where the flag is being raised, lowered or is passing in review, the traditional right hand over the heart - with the hat removed - is still a viable and very respectful alternative to the new law."

Traditionally, members of veterans service organizations have rendered hand-salutes during the national anthem, and at events involving the flag, while wearing their organization's official headgear.

http://www.gmasw.com/salute.htm
 
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redleghunter

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Exactly. He's gotta get his name in the papers somehow. His performance on the field certainly isn't cutting it.
Not saying it IS the reason but could be one. No one is taking about Kap lately. Folks are talking up Dak but not Kap.
 
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Tallguy88

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Turns out, there's actually federal law about proper conduct during the national anthem:

  1. Designation: The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
  2. Conduct During Playing: During a rendition of the national anthem:
    1. When the flag is displayed:[23]
      1. individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
      2. members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
      3. all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
    2. when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

So hand over heart is proper and correct.
 
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SummerMadness

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I've always stood facing the flag for the anthem. But I don't believe there is uniformity on whether to put your hand over your heart. If I'm wearing a hat, I take it off and put it over my heart.
The hat thing I know, I think everyone's been taught that since grade school. I am quite interested in its origin, I'm sure it's quite fascinating or absolutely mundane. In my middle school, they had no hat zones, which included classrooms and administrative offices, but hallways, cafteria, etc., hats were allowed.
 
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Albion

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You'll need to be clear on what you mean. Hand over your heart for the national anthem is not something I ever heard of, are you suggesting the candidate started this tradition or attacks on the candidate started a tradition to attack him/her?
Neither. I'm inclined to agree with the observation that this isn't an age-old way of standing when the Anthem is played (and, in fact, I attend ball games where most men simply stand with their hats in hand and no one seems to think they're disrespectful). So what prompted the idea that hand on heart is what should be done?
 
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SummerMadness

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Turns out, there's actually federal law about proper conduct during the national anthem:

  1. Designation: The composition consisting of the words and music known as the Star-Spangled Banner is the national anthem.
  2. Conduct During Playing: During a rendition of the national anthem:
    1. When the flag is displayed:[23]
      1. individuals in uniform should give the military salute at the first note of the anthem and maintain that position until the last note;
      2. members of the Armed Forces and veterans who are present but not in uniform may render the military salute in the manner provided for individuals in uniform; and
      3. all other persons present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and
    2. when the flag is not displayed, all present should face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if the flag were displayed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code

So hand over heart is proper and correct.
So it is a recent addition.
 
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Hank77

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Oh, and remember my friend's nephew who was unjustly killed while in police custody? He was white, so I guess he doesn't count in the narrative of police brutality Kaepernick was protesting.
I'm sorry that your friend's son was unjustly killed while in police custody. That is very sad and shouldn't have happened.

This is the way I, as a white person like your friend's son, look at the work being done by black people to fight against unjust police brutality. They are not just fighting for black people because any advances they make in this fight is beneficial to the white community as well.
Maybe your friend's son would still be alive if the goals of black people had been reached. What they are doing will effect how all people are treated by the police.

BLM have a heavy burden to bear, because if they go about this in the wrong way, it could effect the whole country in a bad way, and make things worse for all of us.
 
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SummerMadness

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Neither. I'm inclined to agree with the observation that this isn't an age-old way of standing when the Anthem is played (and, in fact, I attend ball games where most men simply stand with their hats in hand and no one seems to think they're disrespectful). So what prompted the idea that hand on heart is what should be done?
It looks like Tallguy88 got the info, it was enacted into law in 1998, which figures why most people don't know it. I'm guessing school age students will follow the formality.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Guy protests about oppression and people's first reaction is to dismiss any claims of oppression and then immediately tell him to fall back in line, shut up and play your game or 'git out ma country!'
 
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Shiloh Raven

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Guy protests about oppression and people's first reaction is to dismiss any claims of oppression and then immediately tell him to fall back in line, shut up and play your game or 'git out ma country!'

Yep, I think that sums it up about right.
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Yeah, I think that sums it up about right.
Whenever I hear the "love it or leave it" trope, my first reaction is to just turn it around on them. "You don't like the new America? Then you can just leave."

Of course, I don't actually mean it because I would never tell a fellow American he had to accept the country as is or find a new home. That is what a bad American would do, IMO.
 
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