col 2:16 the accurate interpretation and the final word on the text

[Adventist Heretic]

Tall that did not answer the question. Who are of the House of David in the passage. They have to be Jewish. Which is the problem with your explanation, there are no Jews. Which brings me to something that is over looked. In 722 b.c. they Assyarins came and conquered the 10 northern tribes and guess where they took them, right in the area of Colossae,and Galatia. This seems to be the heart of the problem in solving the problem. People are over looking this. That the initial success was among these groups. Colossaians, Galatians, I & II Peter, 1,2,&,3 John were addressed to many of these Jewish Gnostic Believers. Paul In Glatians referres to these people not as gentiles but Uncircumcised.

NEVER GOT a RESPONSE

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Read up on the Roman history of Philippi.



The last point is important: Emperial decrees for the city of Rome applied as well in Philippi. Around 47-49 AD, the Emperor Claudius decreed that all Jews be exiled from Rome, which included the Christian Jews Priscilla and Aquilla (Acts 18:2). This decree applied as well to Philippi, thus if there had been any Jews there, they would have already been expelled when Paul and Silas arrived and found no synagogue there. Inasmuch as Lydia appears to have already been a God-fearer, there may have been Jews in Philippi previously.

But for sure, the objection to the activities of Paul and Silas differed legally from the objections they faced in other cities. In other cities, the objections were always brought by outraged Jews. In Philippi, it was brought by Romans and specifically for violation of Roman law--a unique occurrence in scripture.

And they brought them to the magistrates, and said, “These men, being Jews, exceedingly trouble our city; and they teach customs which are not lawful for us, being Romans, to receive or observe.” -- Acts 16

But what was the real story there? We know it was not the gospel itself that was the violation of Roman law, because Paul preached that same gospel to a couple of Roman governors literally for years and was never charged for it. What had happened was that Paul and Silas were preaching something that sounded basically Jewish to pagan ears, and Jews were forbidden from being in the city.

Thought this was really good, did not know the connection between Rome & Philippi, however some question come to mind. 1. if Jews were not allowed in Philippi, How come Paul was there?
2. If Paul was there couldn't there have been other Jews?
3. Eventually the edict was reversed, we know that because Prycilla and Aquilla went back to Rome and are mentioned in the book of Romans. When was it reversed?

 

[BobRyan]

bob I hope you know I was challaening him, not asking you to take my word for it.

Yes I do know that - but I think that advise is good all the way around.

 

[BobRyan]

Col 2 condemns "making stuff up" -- it does not condemn the Bible.

Food - Acts 15 says not to eat things strangled or things offered to idols. A rule about what you shall eat.
drink - Paul said not to get drunk with wine -- a rule about drink.

Obviously Paul was not in rebellion against those "Bible rules"

However as see here - they were 'making stuff up' even before the cross.

Mark 2 - The Jews made stuff up about what could not be done on Sabbath.
Mark 7:1-6 - the Jews made stuff up about food and drink.

Bob I am not sure what side you are on, Pro Sabbath or against Sabbath. If you could clarify.

My profile-icon says I am Seventh-day Adventist so that makes me "pro-Sabbath" -

But I am also "pro eating" and "pro drinking healthy drinks"

(Since this seems to be an Adventist section of the board -- I am thinking there are one or two others here in the same boat)

In Romans 14 - Paul defends those who keep annual feast days.
But not everyone will choose to observe them - so no problem.

In Acts 15 we are reminded of OT Law regarding what you may eat.

In Eph 5:18 we are reminded of rules about how much (or what) you may drink.

 

[BobRyan]

James was the one speaking. And you cut off the thought in the middle. That is why your quote starts with "for", because he is drawing the conclusion from the preceding statement. He said "for the law of Moses..." because He had just been referencing the law of Moses in regards to the Gentiles. The provisions they laid on the Gentiles were from the law, and were the things required of Gentiles outside of Israel.

Once again, no one is claiming the law was done away with, or the Sabbath. The Jewish Christians went on keeping both. And the Gentile Christians were required to keep the portions that applied to Gentiles outside of Israel--which they were.

There was no OT command that gentile believers in the One true God outside of Israel be circumcised.

But they would be required to "Honor parents" and as Isaiah 56 says "Keep the Sabbath".

For as Christ said in Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind" and as it turns out -- gentiles are part of mankind

 

[RDKirk]

Thought this was really good, did not know the connection between Rome & Philippi, however some question come to mind. 1. if Jews were not allowed in Philippi, How come Paul was there?
2. If Paul was there couldn't there have been other Jews?
3. Eventually the edict was reversed, we know that because Prycilla and Aquilla went back to Rome and are mentioned in the book of Romans. When was it reversed?

Paul traveled with Greeks and was a Roman citizen himself; he probably didn't look any different from any other traveler. Apparently it took some time before Paul's preaching identified him as a Jew, plus the fact that he cost one businessman a lucrative profit venture.

Emperor Claudius' edict expelling Jews from Rome was reversed by Emperor Nero in 54 AD (Paul's letter to the church in Rome was written around 56 AD).

Most scholars (at least, Protestant scholars) believe that Christianity had already begun in Rome prior to Claudius' explusion edict (and that it might have been friction between Christians and Jews that was the cause of Cladius' edict). Further, that Christian community it is believed contained both Jewish and Gentile believers.

That would mean that Priscilla and Aquila returned as Jewish Christians to a congregation of Gentile Christians that had been operating on its own for several years. I suspect that if the Jewish Christians had been the leaders of the congregation before, their return may have sparked friction between them...which is something to keep in mind as one reads Paul's letter to the Roman church and his separate admonitions to both groups.

 

[Adventist Heretic]

any recommendation on book about roman culture, society and polotics?

 

[com7fy8]

Things that are a "shadow" are created things. The Sabbath is related to where the sun is in relation to the earth, and the sun and earth are created and temporary, therefore shadow things; therefore, a time or day determined by shadow things would likewise be a shadow item. This does not mean God does not care if we keep the Sabbath; so I do not mean this as an argument against Sabbath keeping being required.

But what is the rest of the Sabbath a shadow of? Or, could we say, what is the fulfillment of the Sabbath? >

"rest for your souls" (Matthew 11:28-30) which we have 24/7 while we rest in how Jesus cares for us and guides us.

If we observe the Sabbath, I would understand this includes how we be still with God and submit to however He corrects us and transforms us into the image of Jesus, while we rest and do not work. And how we become while resting like this is our standard for how to stay while doing various things of the week. During Sabbath time, we can be standardized, then, spiritually, so we are with God in His peace, so then we do all things with Him in His goodness and peace, not limiting this to one day of the week.

"How we are blessed on the Sabbath can be an example of how we can always be, emotionally and spiritually, even while we are doing shadow things of work."

And I note, by the way, how the Sabbath commandment says that your servants must not work on the Sabbath. I see that God loves all people and so He desires that all people benefit from rest and devoting to Him. And so, the command to make sure your servant does not work is a love-your-neighbor-as-yourself commandment

 

[BobRyan]

Paul traveled with Greeks and was a Roman citizen himself; he probably didn't look any different from any other traveler. Apparently it took some time before Paul's preaching identified him as a Jew, plus the fact that he cost one businessman a lucrative profit venture.

In Acts 13 Paul simply "walks in" to a synagogue and is immediately asked to speak. He was apparently dressed in the garb of a Pharisee.

Paul claims to be a Jew even after becoming a Christian - and says this is also true of Peter

In Acts 21 - James is squarely in favor of Messianic Jews to the point of instructing Paul to participate in a ceremonial vow.

In Gal 2
11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles

Acts 23:6
But perceiving that one group were Sadducees and the other Pharisees, Paul began crying out in the Council, "Brethren, I am a Pharisee, a son of Pharisees; I am on trial for the hope and resurrection of the dead!"

Acts 13
14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.”

16 Then Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:

QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68604514, member: 235244"]Although Paul was certainly not under the condemnation of the Law as a born again New Covenant Christian - yet he also was not devoted to rebellion against the Law of God -

What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.



Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;


Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening

 

[RDKirk]

In Acts 13 Paul simply "walks in" to a synagogue and is immediately asked to speak. He was apparently dressed in the garb of a Pharisee.

Yes, Paul walked into a synagogue.

Are you under the impression that his religious preparations to enter the synagogue--because Gentiles were not permitted, one did not simply stroll off the street into a synagogue--would not have made it clear that he was a Jew?

I doubt Paul wore his Star of David button on his outer garments.

 

[com7fy8]

I doubt Paul wore his Star of David button on his outer garments.

Paul says, "to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews", and "to those who are without law, as without law", in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. So, I see that possibly Paul could have worn Jewish clothing while doing outreach in a synagogue. Also, if he wore even Pharisaical clothes, but then reached to the Gentiles, this could have helped to show that though he was Jewish he knew how Jesus does want any and all people.

If I were doing outreach to a Sabbath keeping group, I would not show up at their meeting place on Sunday

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, Paul walked into a synagogue.

Are you under the impression that his religious preparations to enter the synagogue--because Gentiles were not permitted, one did not simply stroll off the street into a synagogue--would not have made it clear that he was a Jew?

I doubt Paul wore his Star of David button on his outer garments.

Gentiles were present in the Synagogue as we see in Acts 13 and they were also in the Synagogues in Acts 17, and 18 which is why Acts 15 makes reference to Christians hearing scripture in the synagogues every Sabbath.

Gentiles were not allowed in the Temple in Jerusalem.

But the Jewish synagogue leaders in Acts 15 - recognize Paul as a Pharisee and ask him to come up and speak a word to the congregation.

Pharisees were not wearing the German or the Catholic "star of david' emblem - they wore tassels and philacteries and other indicators of their religious status.

 

[BobRyan]

notice that when swearing under oath as to his teaching and practice -
Today at 8:24 AM #229

Paul repeatedly points out that all his teaching and practice is perfectly consistent with his status as a Pharisee. He even points this out to Sadducees in the midst of the trial -

 

[BobRyan]

Things that are a "shadow" are created things.

The annual Sabbaths of Lev 23 are shadows of the coming Messiah - hence 1Cor 5 "Christ our Passover has been slain"

 

[Adventist Heretic]

Paul says, "to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews", and "to those who are without law, as without law", in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. So, I see that possibly Paul could have worn Jewish clothing while doing outreach in a synagogue. Also, if he wore even Pharisaical clothes, but then reached to the Gentiles, this could have helped to show that though he was Jewish he knew how Jesus does want any and all people.

[If I were doing outreach to a Sabbath keeping group, I would not show up at their meeting place on Sunday

outreach, so funny!!!

 

[RDKirk]

Paul says, "to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews", and "to those who are without law, as without law", in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23. So, I see that possibly Paul could have worn Jewish clothing while doing outreach in a synagogue. Also, if he wore even Pharisaical clothes, but then reached to the Gentiles, this could have helped to show that though he was Jewish he knew how Jesus does want any and all people.

If I were doing outreach to a Sabbath keeping group, I would not show up at their meeting place on Sunday

Yes. But the question I was responding to was about why the Philippians would not have immediately recognized Paul as a Jew and perhaps stopped him even at the gate.

There are many possibilities. My thought is that while in traveling garments, traveling in a party with Greeks, Paul probably did not stand out on the street as a Jew to the casual eye. Since there was no synagogue at Philippi, how Paul may have been dressed while entering a synagogue in some other city is a moot point to this particular question.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes. But the question I was responding to was about why the Philippians would not have immediately recognized Paul as a Jew and perhaps stopped him even at the gate.

Why would the Philippians be bent on banning Jews? Given that Paul was a Jew and a Roman citizen - then I suspect he was not the only one-- thus they would be banning Roman citizens and at some point - Rome might complain.

1. There was never a decree to banish Jews from the Roman empire.
2. There was never a decree of the form "ban the Jews from your city if you don't already have a synagogue in your city".

3. In Acts 15 the Jerusalem council says that "in every city" there is a synagogue and Moses is preached. It apparently was not their view that "in every city synagogues are banned".

In Acts 15 "every city" (as in pretty much everywhere) has a synagogue and in Acts 16 - Paul goes to Philippi and of course in Acts 17 and in Acts 18 Paul is in the synagogues preaching to Jews - AND gentiles "Sabbath after Sabbath".

 

[RDKirk]

Why would the Philippians be bent on banning Jews? Given that Paul was a Jew and a Roman citizen - then I suspect he was not the only one-- thus they would be banning Roman citizens and at some point - Rome might complain.

As we know from the scriptural text itself, they did not know Paul was a Roman citizen until he told them...the next day.

1. There was never a decree to banish Jews from the Roman empire.
2. There was never a decree of the form "ban the Jews from your city if you don't already have a synagogue in your city".

3. In Acts 15 the Jerusalem council says that "in every city" there is a synagogue and Moses is preached. It apparently was not their view that "in every city synagogues are banned".

In Acts 15 "every city" (as in pretty much everywhere) has a synagogue and in Acts 16 - Paul goes to Philippi and of course in Acts 17 and in Acts 18 Paul is in the synagogues preaching to Jews - AND gentiles "Sabbath after Sabbath".

I've already gone over the known history of those events, which is backed up by scripture. You can check my earlier post or do your own research.

 

[BobRyan]

As we know from the scriptural text itself, they did not know Paul was a Roman citizen until he told them...the next day.

But they did not find it impossible that some Jews were Romans - so when Paul said as much - they did not try to research it - they took it as fact.

And as stated before there was no statement by the Emperor saying that Jews had to leave the empire or that all cities had to expell them or that any city that did not already have a synagogue must expell the Jews and the Jerusalem council itself states explicitly that this is not their view of what was going on. -- And they were "living it".

 

[Dave-W]

hey wore tassels and philacteries

They are called tzitzit and tefillin. There is a scriptural basis for wearing them.