Co-operate with Jesus and the Spirit’s “ministry of righteousness”

[brotherjerry]

Bro Jerry the Baptist has been brainwashed by a religious organization
which believes in, and teaches, cessationism ... i.e. they do not believe
the baptism with the Holy Spirit and the 9 spiritual power gifts are for today!

If they can be so disastrously in error on this incredibly important point,
I say they can easily be deceived and wrong on any number of other points!
I.E. Yes, this is a salvation issue!

So now you are going to start knocking denominations? Not certain where you get your facts form anyways...Baptist churches are independent, each one of them...they have no higher structure or central authority for doctrine as most every other denomination does. Not that that actually matters much...but if you are going to say they are brainwashed then whomever did it went to each and every baptist church out there to do it.

 

[EmSw]

Ummm not certain where you get that my views would say someones salvation is in jeopardy... I accept what the Bible says in that my salvation is protected by God...eternally secure. I also recognize that people do and will sin, even after they were saved. But they are no longer under the bondage of sin....sin is no longer leading their life...perhaps you have me confused with someone else?

You said disobedience proves you were never saved (post 37).

 

[Soyeong]

If you are created for good works, and commanded to walk in then, why do you and others try so desperately to correct me? It seems you would be encouraging me.

The order was very important to Paul and he spilled much ink making sure to get we got it straight. We don't become new creations in Christ by doing good works, but rather we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works.

Why do you think I would want to boast? That would be a personal decision of which I have no desire.

Whether or not you desire to boast, if you could become righteous by doing good works, then you would legitimately have something you could boast about. Your justification would be something that God would legally owe you because of what you did rather than being by grace through faith.

Let me ask this - is a person righteous if he doesn't practice righteousness? John says this person is not even born of God. And where does it say in John 'because that's what righteous people do'? Why do you want to add to John's word?

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.

God is righteous, so He always does what is righteous, that's not adding to God's word, that's just inherent in the definition of what it means to say that God is righteous. Again, it's like saying if someone is a Firefighter, then they are someone fight fires because that's what it means to be a Firefighter. There could of course be some outside factor that is preventing us from doing what is righteous, but we should desire to do God's will. Someone who has no desire to do God's will is not righteous because they have no faith.

 

[EmSw]

The order was very important to Paul and he spilled much ink making sure to get we got it straight. We don't become new creations in Christ by doing good works, but rather we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works.

Does the order really matter? What if one is a new creation and doesn't do good works? Will being a new creation be profitable to him?

Whether or not you desire to boast, if you could become righteous by doing good works, then you would legitimately have something you could boast about. Your justification would be something that God would legally owe you because of what you did rather than being by grace through faith.

If you decided on your own to follow Christ, then you have something to boast about. If you decide to obey the teachings of the Master, you have something to boast about. Does this mean you will boast?

Having something to boast about and actually boasting are two very different things.

God is righteous, so He always does what is righteous, that's not adding to God's word, that's just inherent in the definition of what it means to say that God is righteous. Again, it's like saying if someone is a Firefighter, then they are someone fight fires because that's what it means to be a Firefighter. There could of course be some outside factor that is preventing us from doing what is righteous, but we should desire to do God's will. Someone who has no desire to do God's will is not righteous because they have no faith.

What if a new creation has no desire to do God's will? Instead they has rather criticize others who do.

 

[Soyeong]

It is continued, and it is continued by grace, through faith. You are promoting the idea that we begin by faith and then we switch to works. That's precisely what the issue was in the Galatian church. It was so bad an error that Paul said these things:

O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Galatians 3:1-3 ESV)

We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Galatians 2:15-16 ESV)

For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. (Galatians 2:19-21 ESV)

​

When God says that this is the way to live rightly, and we have faith that God knows what He is talking about, then we will live according to God's instructions. So doing good works is an expression of our faith, not switch from faith. The problem with the Galatians is that they were already justified, but they were beginning to listen to others who were telling them that they needed to do good works according to their customs in order to be justified. God never command good works for the purpose of becoming justified through doing them, but that doesn't mean that God didn't have some other purpose for commanding them. Moses could not have excused his disobedience to God's commands by saying that obedience didn't justify him and neither can we.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If you decided on your own to follow Christ, then you have something to boast about.

B I N G O! Which makes God's choosing the only way to avoid boasting, which also means that Calvin was correct.

 

[Soyeong]

Zachary,
You can "practice" all the righteousness you want, and you will still come short of the glory of God.

So if we take a hypothetical scenario where you are standing at the gate of Heaven:
God asks you: "On what grounds should I admit you into my holy presence?"
You: "I have been practising righteousness".
God: "Are you as perfect as I am, since that is the criterion for entry?"
You: "Frankly, I admit that I am not as perfect as God".
God: "Then you need the perfection of Christ. Do you have it?"
You: "Not sure. I always questioned and doubted imputed righteousness".

Do you see where that leaves you? Doubting God and doubting His plan of salvation.

God never commanded people to practice righteousness for the purpose of gaining entrance to His presence in the first place. We are saved by faith and it is by faith that we are to practice righteousness. When God says that this is how to live righteously, and we have faith that God knows what He is talking about, then we will live righteously as an expression of that faith. Christ's imputed righteousness is what frees us to live righteously by faith.

 

[Soyeong]

Righteousness means right standing before God. In order to have right standing before God you have to be free of the condemnation of Adam's sin. The only way to be free of sin is through Jesus. Therefore, the only way to be righteous before God is through the right standing you receive through your union with Jesus Christ. Works have nothing to do with it.

Alan

To say God is righteous is to say that He does what is righteous. So while it is true that being declared righteous gives us right standing before God and works had nothing to bring that about, being declared righteous also means that we are to do what is righteous. We are been saved by grace through faith, not by doing what is righteous, lest anyone should boast, but rather we are made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing what is righteous (Ephesians 2:8-10).

 

[EmSw]

B I N G O! Which makes God's choosing the only way to avoid boasting, which also means that Calvin was correct.

Calvin was a lottery enthusiast. His only hope of salvation was getting lucky and being picked by God.

Besides, boasting is a choice each of make. I choose not to boast.

 

[EmSw]

B I N G O! Which makes God's choosing the only way to avoid boasting, which also means that Calvin was correct.

Why can't God choosing lucky you not make you boast of being picked?

Here is Mirriam-Webster's definition of boast -

a statement in which you express too much pride in yourself or in something you have, have done, or are connected to in some way

Why prevents you from boasting concerning your connection with God?

 

[Soyeong]

Does the order really matter? What if one is a new creation and doesn't do good works? Will being a new creation be profitable to him?

If the order didn't matter, then Paul wouldn't have spent so much time correcting people who got it in the wrong order. It's not the works themselves that is important, lest anyone should boast, but what is important is being in a relationship with God that is based on faith, of which good works are a natural outflowing. Someone who doesn't want to do good works bring into question whether they were made new reactions in the first place.

If you decided on your own to follow Christ, then you have something to boast about. If you decide to obey the teachings of the Master, you have something to boast about. Does this mean you will boast?

Having something to boast about and actually boasting are two very different things.

We can't follow Christ on our own, it is only through faith that we can do that. We do not have a hand in earning our justification, so it is not just that we have something to boast about and choose not to, but that we don't have anything to boast about in that regard.

 

[brotherjerry]

You said disobedience proves you were never saved (post 37).

Never saved is different from salvation being in jeopardy...for it to be in jeopardy would indicate you had it to lose it. At least that is what I took from what you had said and what it meant to me.

 

[brotherjerry]

If you decided on your own to follow Christ, then you have something to boast about. If you decide to obey the teachings of the Master, you have something to boast about. Does this mean you will boast?

The only thing to boast here is that I have something that you too can have (Speaking from a boastful point of view, not that you do or do not have it). That is why salvation is based solely on faith. Everyone can have faith, everyone has the ability to believe, the bar is the same for everyone. When you talk to a works based salvation believer you never find out what works are needed to be saved. And it can't be the same works for everyone because some things are really not possible for some people to physically do. And when some people have to do one thing while other may do something else, then some people think it was easier for others and harder for the rest. Envy, jealousy, and all the nasty stuff that comes with it enters the mix.

Which is why God paid the price through the blood of Christ so that the field was even for everyone, it becomes a heart issue and we all have hearts.

 

[EmSw]

The only thing to boast here is that I have something that you too can have (Speaking from a boastful point of view, not that you do or do not have it). That is why salvation is based solely on faith. Everyone can have faith, everyone has the ability to believe, the bar is the same for everyone. When you talk to a works based salvation believer you never find out what works are needed to be saved. And it can't be the same works for everyone because some things are really not possible for some people to physically do. And when some people have to do one thing while other may do something else, then some people think it was easier for others and harder for the rest. Envy, jealousy, and all the nasty stuff that comes with it enters the mix.

Which is why God paid the price through the blood of Christ so that the field was even for everyone, it becomes a heart issue and we all have hearts.

Can't a person boast they have faith?

Jesus gave us plenty examples of works for believers.

Matthew 7:12
Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Matthew 25
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in;
36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

As far as some having it 'easier' than others, I am reminded of Peter's concern about John.

John 21
20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?”
21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what about this man?”
22 Jesus said to him, “If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me.”

Jesus told Peter basically not to worry about John, but told Peter to follow Him.

 

[sdowney717]

Acts 3
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong.

It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.

Faith is one of the gifts of God.

 

[ZacharyB]

We don't become new creations in Christ by doing good works,
but rather we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works.

New creations in Christ may (and can) choose to be a slave to sin
... and end up in eternal death (Paul, Romans 6).
Dis is what all of the many dire warnings to the churches are all about.
Although I can attest to the fact that the Lord most definitely can mess with
the believer's free-will ... and make it quite uncomfortable for him to sin habitually.
Butski, ain't no robots here, hear?

 

[ZacharyB]

Christ's imputed righteousness is what frees us to live righteously by faith.

Yes, Christ's imputed righteousness comes along with many other blessings,
such as justification, the new nature, the indwelling Holy Spirit,
the freedom to not have to sin any more, etc.
Then, our free will kicks in again ... because it always is king.
Choose to be ...
a slave to obedience unto righteousness unto holiness
or
a slave to the old man's sinning lifestyle unto eternal damnation.
God says: Choose this day who you will serve!

 

[brotherjerry]

New creations in Christ may (and can) choose to be a slave to sin
... and end up in eternal death (Paul, Romans 6).
Dis is what all of the many dire warnings to the churches are all about.
Although I can attest to the fact that the Lord most definitely can mess with
the believer's free-will ... and make it quite uncomfortable for him to sin habitually.
Butski, ain't no robots here, hear?

Where does Romans 6 say this?

 

[ZacharyB]

Where does Romans 6 say this?

PRAY, and do not leave Romans 6 until you "see" what Paul is saying!
It is extremely obvious (to me) that he is telling them (and us) to ...
CHOOSE to be a slave of obedience, etc. OR a slave of sin!

The Holy Spirit is indwelling us for the purpose of leading us into all Truth.
Butski, He cannot do this when believers are NOT open to hearing spiritual Truth.
Many are closed because they have been deceived and brainwashed into
believing all kinds of false doctrines from the very pits of hell.

I came into this whole deal 25 years ago with NO biases, opinions, etc.
So, I have had quite a decided advantage over many others.
Plus, the Lord called me 20 years ago to be a Spirit-filled evangelist.
The baptism opens up the possibility for more and deeper spiritual insights.
Then, it depends on what the Lord through the Spirit chooses to reveal.

 

[brotherjerry]

So again...where does Romans 6 say what you are saying that it says this. Explain it to us. Exegesis Romans Chapter 6 for us. Simply telling us to read it, is not the same as you explaining your self. You claim to be called into evangelism...well evangelism is more than just "read your Bible".