Cliques in Church?

[Radicalmonk]

Do you have cliques in your church? If you say no, then I would suggest that you are probably in the most powerful clique in your church. I think that all of us, if not all, have experienced the “shunning” effect of a clique in church. Some cliques may actually be necessary and healthy as those of small support groups sharing confidential information amongst themselves and requiring certain exclusive parameters to maintain the confidentiality and productivity of the group or of administrative groups requiring certain confidentiality (regarding tithes and offerings or serious, humiliating personal problems of a member, for example.) But such as those requiring confidentiality to protect someone aside, the majority may not be needed or good at all and in fact could be very sinful according to the heart of God. Uplifting channel premiered a movie last night; I think it was titled “Nowhere to Hide.” It was in a secular high school setting but still it was a people group and most, if not all, of the type of cliques there can be found in church. Some churches on the smaller side of things have many family members and relatives or a core controlling group and it seems to exist primarily for the promotion of this clan and its interests while exploiting the time, resources, gifts and talents of the rest while keeping them (and their children) down/"in their position." What do you think? What could be done to impede or stop cliques or at least their damaging effects in a church where the HEAD of of the church thought nothing of associating with those of whom His orthodox priests commanded its race/members NOT to, if you think that they are bad?

((Please allow me to define “clique” for our purposes in this thread: “A small group of people, with shared interests or other features in common, who spend time together and do not readily allow others to join them.” (please see the Oxford dictionary online/American version/can't post links yet/tried) All of the other sources I checked had virtually the same definition but used the word “exclusive” or other forms [FONT=&quot]of that word whereas that is spelled out above. Notice it says “small group” as in a sub-group of a larger group.)) [/FONT]

 

[Willie T]

I'm 69. Why would I want to hang out with 20 year-olds... or, they, with me?

Same thing would apply with just about any classification or category you might choose to name.

 

[Radicalmonk]

Why would a 69 year old want to “hang out” with a 20 year old? Let me see; as a follower of Jesus the Christ, He Himself said that we must deny ourselves (deny self-centeredness; ie; choosing only associates who please ourselves) and take up our cross to do so:

• 1) Why would a grandfather not want to “hang out” with his grandchildren?

• 2) Paul “hung out” with Timothy, a young man

• 3) Jesus, of whom we are to emulate, hung out with any and everyone, regardless of age, race, wealth/poverty, sex, political or religious persuasion, infectious disease, criminal conviction and so on, even the dead

• 4) In our Great Commission from the angels as Jesus ascended (Acts 1:8) they didn’t say just evangelize those of whom you feel comfortable in your own little group

• 5) “Then Jesus said to his host, “When you give a luncheon or dinner, do not invite your friends, your brothers or relatives, or your rich neighbors;…” Jesus said that one should rather do this:, ”But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed.” Luke 14: 12 – 14

6) The Christian life is not about us, it is about ministering to others as our Lord and leader did. At least, that is my understanding of God's Word.

 

[MattiMuck]

Is "not inviting" the same as "not allowing"? My wife and I are in our late 20s/early 30s and frequently hang out with a couple in their 70s, however there are many older couples in our church that we do not hang out with outside of church. We also live in a high law enforcement community, which of course has a high criminal population as well. While those in law enforcement that attend church welcome and try to help those who stuggle with particular crimes such as drug use or worse, if the agents and officers were to "hang out" with criminals outside of church it would put their jobs and families in jeopardy. While cliques have a negative connotation (and probably should), the motivation and level of exclusion must be considered when judging the right/wrong of smaller social groups within a local church body.

 

[Radicalmonk]

Good thinking MM. I did say that some cliques are necessary. But, even as you say, one cannot in clear conscious set a straight across the board or stereotypical parameter. Like you "hang out" with those 70 yr olds. Even if it is just one couple, you would not have all that you do or have had with them if you had. And it is very conceivable that a law enforcement officer, if allowed by his dept., could, if even having to apply for approval, could be found hanging out with a truly reformed x-con at church. One of the damaging accusations against our Lord toward the cross was that He "hung out" with the types of which the established regime dejected and scowled at; yet, He did so regardless. We do have to make our own decisions about things like do we care more about what the world thinks and says or what God does. Putting God before our families and jobs has its costs but it also has its rewards. I have done this to the best that I have been able to with God's help over my life and I have retired with honors from a military career, a para military career (State Police/ Corrections), and an OTR truck driving job. I certainly did NOT make the promotions lists very often as even though I performed above and beyond (as if serving the Lord) I never worshiped man or did things which others would do to stay in the graces of supervision, regardless how "shady" it may be and had to be a loner most of the time, (an alien in this world in communion with the Lord in heaven.) I can say that through the very hard and grueling (threatening even to life) years I have shared, the Lord protected my family and esp me. Many times it looked REAL bad; being set up many times, falsely accused and punished, and even placed into very deadly circumstances but through it all the Lord managed to redeem me and now I am extremely blessed. Richly blessed. Praise His most Holy Name forever and ever.

The definition of cliques for this thread had the nature of being exclusive or not allowing (or inviting) certain people into your group as I see you are in line with. But remember that I did establish that there should and would be some necessary cliques; where personal confidentiality, administrative or otherwise security, and maybe a few other cases mandate an exclusivity in a small group (even of 2.)

What I think I am trying to get at is that cliques in a church all to OFTEN become a means of avoidance for those who don't want to forgive someone in the church, or those who don't want to be hospitable to strangers or visitors, or for those to avoid being rightly confronted about an offense they did, or for someone popular to stay popular, for those in power officially or informally to retain it, for someone to maintain or strengthen their social connections in the church merely for personal security or gain, or on and on. None of that is what I see church is supposed to be about.

 

[parsley]

If you say no, then I would suggest that you are probably in the most powerful clique in your church.

(-:

Sometimes this simply starts with an elder having access to information, discussing it with other elders, venting to their spouse when they get home to a meeting, and the information continues outward.

It is true; but also consider that many people feel left out, and 80% of a room could be filled with people wondering why no one is talking to them. They sit and listen for an hour, then walk around a crowded room with a coffee cup for fifteen minutes. The commotion makes it look like people are connecting, but are they really?

Sometimes people are just saying to each other, "Did you see my child run off?"
Or "Nice coat."
Or "The coffee's too hot."

And yes sometimes people pass along incriminating info, but that could stem from trying to figure out what to do about it. For instance, an alcoholic might want to get on worship team but never wake up on time for Sunday practices. Does the team let them continue unchecked, say something, suggest probation or conditional involvement... things get discussed.

The more involved a person is, the more they know. Good and bad.

I grew up knowing a lot because my parents talked about church leadership issues at dinner, and took counseling calls at home. I'd hear things like, "X just lost custody -- should we send it on the prayer chain?" They were discreet most of the time, but I still overheard phone conversations about drug problems, affairs, and conflicts among the board of elders.

I am glad you brought up suppression of children, because I watched that happen in a very vibrant church setting. The parents poured all their energies into the church, while the children were told to be compliant and quiet.

When the children grew older or started standing up for themselves, they were considered rebellious and contentious. The parents did not see anything wrong with what was going on -- they were viewing it from a different angle.
Cliques were strong and distinct.

 

[razzelflabben]

Do you have cliques in your church? If you say no, then I would suggest that you are probably in the most powerful clique in your church. I think that all of us, if not all, have experienced the “shunning” effect of a clique in church. Some cliques may actually be necessary and healthy as those of small support groups sharing confidential information amongst themselves and requiring certain exclusive parameters to maintain the confidentiality and productivity of the group or of administrative groups requiring certain confidentiality (regarding tithes and offerings or serious, humiliating personal problems of a member, for example.) But such as those requiring confidentiality to protect someone aside, the majority may not be needed or good at all and in fact could be very sinful according to the heart of God. Uplifting channel premiered a movie last night; I think it was titled “Nowhere to Hide.” It was in a secular high school setting but still it was a people group and most, if not all, of the type of cliques there can be found in church. Some churches on the smaller side of things have many family members and relatives or a core controlling group and it seems to exist primarily for the promotion of this clan and its interests while exploiting the time, resources, gifts and talents of the rest while keeping them (and their children) down/"in their position." What do you think? What could be done to impede or stop cliques or at least their damaging effects in a church where the HEAD of of the church thought nothing of associating with those of whom His orthodox priests commanded its race/members NOT to, if you think that they are bad?

((Please allow me to define “clique” for our purposes in this thread: “A small group of people, with shared interests or other features in common, who spend time together and do not readily allow others to join them.” (please see the Oxford dictionary online/American version/can't post links yet/tried) All of the other sources I checked had virtually the same definition but used the word “exclusive” or other forms [FONT=&quot]of that word whereas that is spelled out above. Notice it says “small group” as in a sub-group of a larger group.)) [/FONT]

For the most part, our church right now has 1 main clique and it is very harmful to the church as a church. In fact, they have succeeded in pushing some people from the church. Before I go on with what I want to say, let me emphasis that a clique does NOT allow others into the group. An example from our church. Deacon couple was asked to go out to lunch with the "clique" as they have become known over time. But, it had to be approved by the others in the clique before they could go. This is damaging behavior! By contrast, we had a prayer group going, asked everyone to participate, ended up with 4 couples. The "clique" started accusing us of being a clique even though we constantly were inviting others to join (even with confidential information being shared) and eventually, the group disbanned because of the pressure the "clique" put on the prayer group for being a clique even though we wanted anyone we could get to join. Thus to me and my way of thinking, the key is whether or not we are welcoming. Obviously, there are people I talk to more than others in a church with (2 building) between 200 and 300 regular attenders. After 7 years, there will be those that we have gone through things with that will always have a connection with. The harm comes when we refuse to include them in our lives. I have friends who feel very close and included in everything we do, even though they can't stand other people in "our group". Part of that is because we purpose to include everyone and even those people who can't stand each other know that and accept it as part of being Loved. Another part of that though is the working of the HS within the lives of the body.

Let me explain. Scripture calls the body one body, many members. Obviously some members will have more in common. My little finger has much more in common with my thumb than my nose does. But they are all part of one body. I remember a new family coming into our church. We were at prayer group and I prayed something about being thankful for new family (don't remember exactly) the woman was totally taken by this and is to this day a wonderful sister in Christ. She knew that no matter if we hung out together or not, we were family, they were included. This is how the body is suppose to act and how it is acting when the HS is in control.

As to confidentiality, that can flow between members of different groups and a clique is not necessary to maintain that privacy. Consider a pastor and all the confidential information he hears, and yet, if He is functioning in the HS, he is not a member of any clique because he excludes no one from his life.

 

[razzelflabben]

Is "not inviting" the same as "not allowing"? My wife and I are in our late 20s/early 30s and frequently hang out with a couple in their 70s, however there are many older couples in our church that we do not hang out with outside of church. We also live in a high law enforcement community, which of course has a high criminal population as well. While those in law enforcement that attend church welcome and try to help those who stuggle with particular crimes such as drug use or worse, if the agents and officers were to "hang out" with criminals outside of church it would put their jobs and families in jeopardy. While cliques have a negative connotation (and probably should), the motivation and level of exclusion must be considered when judging the right/wrong of smaller social groups within a local church body.

The only way I see this as a clique is if the police officers turn their backs on the church members when out in public. Again, a clique is excluding others....that is very different than no doing things together.

Here is another example. Our church has 2 buildings about 20 min. apart. There are some very dear friends in the other building that we seldom do anything with and when we do, it is usually church related, simply because to go there for us, would be about an hour drive. That doesn't make the people they do things with a clique because if we said, hey, we will be over your way can we stop by, they would be excited for us to stop. If the officers are professional in public, but not exclusive, I see no clique. Just my two cents worth

 

[parsley]

Obviously some members will have more in common.

There have been times in a small group where I didn't feel comfortable spreading private information to some of the members, or getting counsel from people with different viewpoints.

Deacon couple was asked to go out to lunch with the "clique" as they have become known over time. But, it had to be approved by the others in the clique before they could go.

Ugh. This reminds me of one church picnic, I was near the pastor in line getting food, and he said to a friend, "Is there still room at your table?" When they said yes, he sighed with relief and said something about them being the only good table of people.

Right in front of everyone, at an event intended to bond the fellowship. So hurtful. I know pastors are people too, and live in the fishbowl... but expressing favoritism in front of others...augh.

 

[razzelflabben]

There have been times in a small group where I didn't feel comfortable spreading private information to some of the members, or getting counsel from people with different viewpoints.

you get to decide who does and does not hear your information, that is not the same thing as being excluded from a group because they are not wanting you there, at least that is how I see it.

Here is another real life example...I end up doing a great deal of counseling. Thus, I have a lot of information about a lot of different people, some like each other, some don't. Everyone pretty much knows that I know things, it's generally accepted. that being said, no one feels left out of "my group" if you want to call it that. Everyone knows that even if you and I don't get along very well, you will still be welcomed and Loved and encouraged to participate. Not in confidential matters, but in life in general, without favoritism. In fact, our pastor knows that I will only bring issues to him that are necessary to bring to him. Otherwise, it's confidential, not because he is excluded, but because people need someone they can confide in. Just because I don't broadcast everyones issues doesn't mean that anyone is excluded from the group. If we are in a group and you want to talk about something confidential, we wait till we can talk privately, that is not excluding anyone, rather it is deciding who knows my business and who doesn't. I'm not sure everyone here understands the difference between confidential information and being exclusive to others joining a group.

Ugh. This reminds me of one church picnic, I was near the pastor in line getting food, and he said to a friend, "Is there still room at your table?" When they said yes, he sighed with relief and said something about them being the only good table of people.

Right in front of everyone, at an event intended to bond the fellowship. So hurtful. I know pastors are people too, and live in the fishbowl... but expressing favoritism in front of others...augh.

When my husband was pastoring, I used to tell him all the time that living in a fishbowl was hard enough, when they start using dynamite it's gone too far....I don't think that is what you are doing here, don't take that comment the wrong way. The pastor in that situation was way wrong and honestly, according to scripture should have been reprimanded (by scriptural means) for his favoritism. That being said, it is really easy (I know, we have been there) for people to be too critical of the pastor and in that play a reverse type of favoritism. A favoritism in which the pastor is criticized more than others.

Here is a real life example. First church my husband pastored, we have 3 very young boys. Our house, the parsonage is clean to the point that some visitors said that it didn't look like we had kids at all. Long story made real short, the church became upset because my husband taught that we were to love everyone even our neighbors. He stood firm. Eventually, the accusation was made that since I didn't wash my windows every week, our house was not "in order" and therefore my husband did not qualify according to scripture to be a pastor. This is using dynamite in a fishbowl and is equally as sinful as the pastor who showed favoritism at that dinner. I guess my point is this, usually we think of favoritism as described above, where we exclude others, but it can also be when we exclude others from the same criticisms either way too harsh or not harsh enough.

One clique that no longer is part of our church did this. Another long story, but a brother had an issue with another brother (not handled well by the church, the offended brother did okay for being immature in Christ) anyway, when the issue came to the attention of the "elders" the offended brother was treated very badly where as the offending brother who had the same sins but more because of the offence, was protected, encouraged, had his sins covered over, pretending they didn't exist. The offended brothers sin was put on display so to speak. This is the type of favoritism that many people run to cliques to avoid.

Cliques offer safety of sorts, which is why they are so popular. Even gangs exist largely because people what to belong and in that find safety. The problem is, the church as a body of believers is suppose to be that place of belonging, that safety net for all other believers. In reality, we allow the cliques to drive people away by only protecting those we deem worthy. This is not only harmful, but sinful behavior for a church that wants to be set apart for God.

Sorry so long....just talking, nothing directed at you specifically

 

[Gordon Wright]

Pity the church that is a clique. That church is halfway to being a cult.

 

[Radrook]

People tend to segregate themselves into groups sharing some commonality such as ethnicity gender, race, education, marital status, age. That's common human behavior which is inevitable.
We are all spiritual brothers in Christ but that doesn't nullify our basic fallen humanity. I guess we will have to wait until we become totally purged of our Adamic heritage in order to enjoy a more blissful association.

 

[Teslafied]

I'm glad there is a topic on this... I myself have been hurt by many of these cliques. It's like no matter what you do or how you try you can never fit in, I learned that I myself don't want to fit into something like that.

One of the last churches I attended I spent thousands there and I even bought gifts and still I could not break through the clique, I'm not saying I wanted in because I don't agree with cliques but I at least wanted to be acknowledged.

I think cliques are the dumbest things ever, I don't care if you're black, white, rich, poor, thin, hefty, tall, short whatever! I'll sting hang with ya. None of that stuff matters all that should matter is your relationship with Christ.