Church membership requires obedience and not debate. Discuss.

[Truly1999]

This forum is a great place for discussion and debate. However, you will find only a tiny number of Christians on here because discussion and debate is not encouraged among the church congregations. Many denominations in the Christian Church require its members to "trust and obey" and not to question the decisions made by the leadership. Only those married church members who follow the pastor blindly will progress through the ranks to Housegroup leader or Sunday School leader.

Although on the surface it appears discussion and debate is at the heart of the Christian Church, it serves only as a tool for brow-beating new Christians and to discipline backsliders.

Church members who want to critically discuss theological issues are discouraged gently at first and may find themselves shunned later on until they get the message.

It begins with the Sunday worship and extends into the midweek small groups. If church members could only look at themselves as outsiders then they would understand why so many ordinary hard-working members of society choose not to become members of the Church. We live in a democracy, but churches are run as theocracies.

The moment you enter the Church building on a Sunday, your behaviour is controlled by the leadership. You are allowed random behaviour for five or ten minutes at the beginning of the meeting, then the praise and worship is tightly controlled for 20 minutes or so for evangelical churches. Then the pastor speaks and everyone listens in silence if you are Methodist or forced exuberance if you are charismatic.

For all the criticism of the Conformist Methodists, the charismatic churches use the same methods of control because they know it works. The chairs are organised to face the pulpit, so that the pastor is the focus of everyone's attention. And when the pastor speaks we listen.We have to be preached at because we need to be discipled, or to put it more accurately, we need to be disciplined.

Small group or house group meetings are based around what the pastor spoke about on Sunday. His sermon is reinforced. Discussion is encouraged - and required - only so that the small group leader can monitor your behaviour or your thinking and to modify your thinking so that eventually you will think as a church member, until you are institutionalised and you become dependent on the church.

It's shocking how many church members gladly hand over their mind and soul to the pastor. They do follow Jesus, but many church members actually listen more to their pastor than they do to God.

Am I the only Christian to see this? Needless to say, I am not a member of any church at the moment.

 

[The Cadet]

Many denominations in the Christian Church require its members to "trust and obey" and not to question the decisions made by the leadership.

Even if that leader is the bible, it seems to me that you have discovered the problem with religion.

 

[Truly1999]

Even if that leader is the bible, it seems to me that you have discovered the problem with religion.

I believe that God wants us to use our freedom in Christ to interpret his Word, the Bible, in the way we see fit. Whereas God might have dictated to his people during the Old Testament times, he allows us to use our own judgment.

The disturbing aspect of some churches, perhaps all of them, but in particular Pentecostal, is that they state that God speaks through the leadership, that he shares a vision with them and they share the vision with the congregation. The leadership make all the big decisions on our behalf. I believe that God has a different vision for each of us which consists of options that he presents to us and allows us to choose which one to pursue or not pursue. I believe that the Church Vision consists of the sum of all the visions given to each church member. I believe that individual members' vision are just as important as the vision which God reveals to the leadership - sometimes more important. But the leadership is often so blinkered, so arrogant in front of God, that they believe that church members must follow the church vision and sacrifice their own vision. In fact, unless a member has been tested and put under a microscope for years, unless he is subordinate and proven valid, then his vision is considered by the leadership as a mere fantasy.

 

[thankfulttt]

I believe that God wants us to use our freedom in Christ to interpret his Word, the Bible, in the way we see fit. Whereas God might have dictated to his people during the Old Testament times, he allows us to use our own judgment.

The disturbing aspect of some churches, perhaps all of them, but in particular Pentecostal, is that they state that God speaks through the leadership, that he shares a vision with them and they share the vision with the congregation. The leadership make all the big decisions on our behalf. I believe that God has a different vision for each of us which consists of options that he presents to us and allows us to choose which one to pursue or not pursue. I believe that the Church Vision consists of the sum of all the visions given to each church member. I believe that individual members' vision are just as important as the vision which God reveals to the leadership - sometimes more important. But the leadership is often so blinkered, so arrogant in front of God, that they believe that church members must follow the church vision and sacrifice their own vision. In fact, unless a member has been tested and put under a microscope for years, unless he is subordinate and proven valid, then his vision is considered by the leadership as a mere fantasy.

This is even more apparent in the Jewish Church. Accept Jesus as the Messiah and you will lose family and friends. The Amish are the same way. Disagree and see how quickly you are shunned.

 

[Truly1999]

This is even more apparent in the Jewish Church. Accept Jesus as the Messiah and you will lose family and friends. The Amish are the same way. Disagree and see how quickly you are shunned.

Are you or have you been a member of an Amish community?

 

[thankfulttt]

Are you or have you been a member of an Amish community?

No, but I have lived among them and know personally those that have been shunned by their families for going to bible studies that were not sanctioned. Their mother and father will not speak to them and store owners will not wait on them.

 

[Truly1999]

No, but I have lived among them and know personally those that have been shunned by their families for going to bible studies that were not sanctioned. Their mother and father will not speak to them and store owners will not wait on them.

I can only imagine that there is a concern about the erosion of community cohesion and a way of life that has been successful for many years.

 

[thankfulttt]

I can only imagine that there is a concern about the erosion of community cohesion and a way of life that has been successful for many years.

I respect the Amish as diligent hard workers, but they lack one thing. Jesus said "For my yoke is easy and my burden light".

 

[Truly1999]

I respect the Amish as diligent hard workers, but they lack one thing. Jesus said "For my yoke is easy and my burden light".

Please could you explain yourself more?

 

[thankfulttt]

Please could you explain yourself more?

Their religion puts a heavy burden on them. They are very legalistic. Their salvation depends on them doing what their bishop says is right. Paul said all things are lawful, but they are not all expedient.

 

[LastSeven]

Truly, I think you have touched on an important topic. Your assessment of church leadership is one of many problems that plagues the average church today. I too am not currently attending church because I find churches so frustrating, for various reasons.

1. Too many sermons are nothing more than motivational speeches.
2. Pastors shy away from anything that might be considered controversial.
3. Churches tend to cater to the lowest common denominator in terms of biblical literacy.
4. The focus is too much on the church (and the building fund) and not enough on God.

If I want fellowship I'll invite my friends over. If I want to praise God I will do so wherever and whenever. If I want to learn something new I'll study my Bible, and if I want to be challenged in debate I'll come here. In other words, when speaking of the average modern church, what do I get out of it? Nothing but frustration.

Last time I was in church I almost fell asleep, while ironically fantasizing about standing up and shouting "wake up people! wake up!!!".

 

[thankfulttt]

Truly, I think you have touched on an important topic. Your assessment of church leadership is one of many problems that plagues the average church today. I too am not currently attending church because I find churches so frustrating, for various reasons.

1. Too many sermons are nothing more than motivational speeches.
2. Pastors shy away from anything that might be considered controversial.
3. Churches tend to cater to the lowest common denominator in terms of biblical literacy.
4. The focus is too much on the church (and the building fund) and not enough on God.

If I want fellowship I'll invite my friends over. If I want to praise God I will do so wherever and whenever. If I want to learn something new I'll study my Bible, and if I want to be challenged in debate I'll come here. In other words, when speaking of the average modern church, what do I get out of it? Nothing but frustration.

Last time I was in church I almost fell asleep, while, ironically, fantasizing about standing up and shouting "wake up people! wake up!!!".

Amen brother. Coming from a board member.

 

[Truly1999]

Truly, I think you have touched on an important topic. Your assessment of church leadership is one of many problems that plagues the average church today. I too am not currently attending church because I find churches so frustrating, for various reasons.

1. Too many sermons are nothing more than motivational speeches.
2. Pastors shy away from anything that might be considered controversial.
3. Churches tend to cater to the lowest common denominator in terms of biblical literacy.
4. The focus is too much on the church (and the building fund) and not enough on God.

If I want fellowship I'll invite my friends over. If I want to praise God I will do so wherever and whenever. If I want to learn something new I'll study my Bible, and if I want to be challenged in debate I'll come here. In other words, when speaking of the average modern church, what do I get out of it? Nothing but frustration.

Last time I was in church I almost fell asleep, while, ironically, fantasizing about standing up and shouting "wake up people! wake up!!!".

This strategy used by some churches often has that effect of sending people into a deep sleep.

I have some sympathy with leaders who use strong arm tactics with its congregation. There are so many individuals who join churches to simply cause mischief, especially where they spot divisions they can exploit. The leadership has a duty to protect its members from dangerous influences. Some individuals are very clever and can take over a church. Some draw others away from the church - vulnerable adults, children, widows, single people who can become easy prey to outsiders.

There are many genuine leaders, of course, who are very intelligent and experienced in strategy who we need to guide us, as servants of Christ. Access to the upper echelons obviously should be based upon circles of trust.

But, the Church has become clogged up by bureaucracy. You only need to observe one or two churches in each denomination which serves to illustrate the whole of the denomination. Based on what I have seen, I listen to God to move me around on his chessboard.

The Vineyard Church is on my radar but it seems so uncertain whether I will be able to join the nearest church. So many Christians will refuse to move denominations when the Holy Spirit wakes them up and miss out for so long. I don't want to be one of those Christians who are satisfied with a single portion.

 

[LastSeven]

I think we have to ask ourselves, what is the purpose of church? What does God want from us? I do believe that God wants us to fellowship together and encourage one another, but I don't believe we need to have a formal church building, or a full time pastor or leadership team, ushers, elders, worship team, etc.

You're right when you say the church has become clogged up by bureaucracy, but I think that's because we have lost sight of the purpose of a church and have come to define "church" as having this common structure, with common expectations which are not even necessarily Biblical or derived from the commands or teachings of Christ.

We, as Christians are the salt of the earth. Church buildings are not the salt of the earth. They are just buildings. We are to influence the people around us by virtue of our righteousness in Christ. We don't need to go to church to do that. In fact, when we are in church, we're actually hiding away from the very people we are supposed to be helping, and yet so many people think that by going to church they are fulfilling their mandate for God and that couldn't be further from the truth. If we are the salt of the earth are we to gather up all the salt and put it in a jar together and call it "church"? Is that the best way to help a world that is lost? I am not a "Jehovah's Witness" but I do admire their commitment to going door to door.

Having said all that, I don't think going to church is wrong necessarily, I just don't think church is as valuable as some people think it is. I think there can be a lot of good work done in church and a lot of people do come to Christ in a church setting, but if churches are to be places of teaching they are failing miserably. And if church leaders are supposed to be leading us, they are failing miserably in that regard as well. Does your pastor compare to a Paul or Peter, even in the slightest?

 

[Truly1999]

Wasn't it a case that Rick Warren changed his thinking about church because he saw many genuine Christians who had stopped going to church because they felt their church was not relevant to them? And out of this, these Christians associated with the Church he lead?

 

[LoveofTruth]

This forum is a great place for discussion and debate. However, you will find only a tiny number of Christians on here because discussion and debate is not encouraged among the church congregations. Many denominations in the Christian Church require its members to "trust and obey" and not to question the decisions made by the leadership. Only those married church members who follow the pastor blindly will progress through the ranks to Housegroup leader or Sunday School leader.

Although on the surface it appears discussion and debate is at the heart of the Christian Church, it serves only as a tool for brow-beating new Christians and to discipline backsliders.

Church members who want to critically discuss theological issues are discouraged gently at first and may find themselves shunned later on until they get the message.

It begins with the Sunday worship and extends into the midweek small groups. If church members could only look at themselves as outsiders then they would understand why so many ordinary hard-working members of society choose not to become members of the Church. We live in a democracy, but churches are run as theocracies.

The moment you enter the Church building on a Sunday, your behaviour is controlled by the leadership. You are allowed random behaviour for five or ten minutes at the beginning of the meeting, then the praise and worship is tightly controlled for 20 minutes or so for evangelical churches. Then the pastor speaks and everyone listens in silence if you are Methodist or forced exuberance if you are charismatic.

For all the criticism of the Conformist Methodists, the charismatic churches use the same methods of control because they know it works. The chairs are organised to face the pulpit, so that the pastor is the focus of everyone's attention. And when the pastor speaks we listen.We have to be preached at because we need to be discipled, or to put it more accurately, we need to be disciplined.

Small group or house group meetings are based around what the pastor spoke about on Sunday. His sermon is reinforced. Discussion is encouraged - and required - only so that the small group leader can monitor your behaviour or your thinking and to modify your thinking so that eventually you will think as a church member, until you are institutionalised and you become dependent on the church.

It's shocking how many church members gladly hand over their mind and soul to the pastor. They do follow Jesus, but many church members actually listen more to their pastor than they do to God.

Am I the only Christian to see this? Needless to say, I am not a member of any church at the moment.

Yes I understand these things ready post about no one man pastor over a church and the church which meets in thier homes and post about authority and no paid ministers in a gathering in the general theology forum


And it is true that mans traditions have affected many

The church is to meet in homes where everyone can share as Gid leads in order not just talking about a man called the pastor who gave his sermon so called . The early church did not have one man over a church called the pastor . Elders plural oversee and they were not Lords or exalted over others as we see today 1 Peter 4:10,11. 1Cor 14:26-38 Romans 12 etc

 

[pdudgeon]

Truly, I think you have touched on an important topic. Your assessment of church leadership is one of many problems that plagues the average church today. I too am not currently attending church because I find churches so frustrating, for various reasons.

1. Too many sermons are nothing more than motivational speeches.
2. Pastors shy away from anything that might be considered controversial.
3. Churches tend to cater to the lowest common denominator in terms of biblical literacy.
4. The focus is too much on the church (and the building fund) and not enough on God.

If I want fellowship I'll invite my friends over. If I want to praise God I will do so wherever and whenever. If I want to learn something new I'll study my Bible, and if I want to be challenged in debate I'll come here. In other words, when speaking of the average modern church, what do I get out of it? Nothing but frustration.

Last time I was in church I almost fell asleep, while, ironically, fantasizing about standing up and shouting "wake up people! wake up!!!".

I'll add:
#5. head-banging loud music that is not God-centered, and is all about us sheeple.
#6. coffee to go! can we say "PAR- TAYYYY!??"

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Truly, I think you have touched on an important topic. Your assessment of church leadership is one of many problems that plagues the average church today. I too am not currently attending church because I find churches so frustrating, for various reasons.

1. Too many sermons are nothing more than motivational speeches.
2. Pastors shy away from anything that might be considered controversial.
3. Churches tend to cater to the lowest common denominator in terms of biblical literacy.
4. The focus is too much on the church (and the building fund) and not enough on God.

If I want fellowship I'll invite my friends over. If I want to praise God I will do so wherever and whenever. If I want to learn something new I'll study my Bible, and if I want to be challenged in debate I'll come here. In other words, when speaking of the average modern church, what do I get out of it? Nothing but frustration.

Last time I was in church I almost fell asleep, while, ironically, fantasizing about standing up and shouting "wake up people! wake up!!!".

My pastor does none of those 4 things, and strangely our church is shrinking. But not in the way you think. The ones who have left over 10 years ago will not return, and those who stay with the church are literally dying off from old age. I would say within 10-20 years My church will no longer exist. People love the big band, power point feel good stuff that the huge non-denominational churches do.

As I have traveled the world in the army. I have begun to wonder if America's certain brand of Christianity is the problem. It is different compared to the rest of the world.

Americans cannot reconcile our cultural expectations of self-determination and free will with the Christian worldview of submission to Christ, perhaps? We seem to try to mix the synthesize the two and it falls apart.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

In church remains this "breeding factory" sense from the colonial days.

The risk of meeting the pastor is that your theology might be the false teaching he'll preach against in his next sermon. lol

It seems to be more for the type of people who were into bullying when I was in school.

not always the case, but something i've noticed. And really hard to grow past spiritual infancy there.

 

[Lukamu]

Am I the only Christian to see this? Needless to say, I am not a member of any church at the moment.

Regardless of the problems you see in a church (your future church, hopefully), none of us are excused from being a part of a church group (see Hebrews 10:25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting [one another]; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.). I think that avoiding church is the first step towards falling away from the faith, but that's my opinion.
I can't remember who said this quote but, "If I am waiting for the perfect church so that I may join it, then by joining it I will have already ruined it." If your church shuns you for bringing up questions that you may have, then you'll have to decide if you want to stick with it or find another one, but you don't need to cross that bridge before you get to it.