Christmas Day Service

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Well, I guess they got that wrong, as well. December 25 is neither the darkest nor the shortest day of the year - certainly not in the southern hemisphere of the earth nor in the northern hemisphere.

On that point, at least the Druids and other ancient religions which were quite focused on astronomy, had they shortest and longest days completely understood.

December 25 was once the shortest day of the year for Christians.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

There may be nothing pagan at all about the incarnation of Jesus Christ, but there is plenty of pagan origins which has found its way into various celebrations of His incarnation.

There are various things that comes from cultures that were pagan that are still done but within the Christmas celebration, for certain people.

That does not make Christian 'pagan' in any sense of the word.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

For once, I agree entirely. December 25 was being celebrated, as a matter of fact, even before Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit.

Celebrated how?

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Personal attack noted. Please note that I have never stated that " The whole Christmas the 25th is a pagan origin." I merely stated that aspects of the celebration do have undeniable pagan and secular origins. These are entirely unrelated to any Christian aspect of the celebration.

Would you care to provide the Christian origins of every aspect of the Christmas celebration? If so, I will draw up a list for our discussion.

For something undeniable, you certainly haven't actually stated what the 'pagan and secular origins' of Christmas are. Which is because there aren't any.

 

[SpiritualAntiseptic]

Thanks for helping to make my point - that December 25 (a fact known to multitudes of people long before the birth of Christ) is not the darkest day of the year and, therefore, has no significance in that regard to the incarnation of the Christ.

You are mistaken. December 25 was the darkest day of the year (the solstice) in the early centuries of Christianity. The Julian calendar moved the solstice back one day every 400 years due to a lack of precision. The issue was finally addressed in the 16th Century, and so the solstice now falls around December 21.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The holidays of the Christian liturgical calender.

At the risk of sounding trite, as you probably know already, there are various Christian liturgical calendars, most of which celebrate the major holidays (Christmas and Easter) on the same days.

You argued that Christmas isn't commanded in the bible. Yes, so? That's not an argument.

I think you are confusing me with another poster. I never made any arguments. I am not here to argue anything. I hope to stick to the facts which are that Christmas isn't commanded in the Bible. To be more precise, I stated that God never commanded any celebration of the incarnation of Jesus Christ, whether you call that celebration Christmas or Hanukkah or Kwanzaa. He did, however, command the commemoration of His death, burial, and resurrection.

 

[bbbbbbb]

December 25 was once the shortest day of the year for Christians.

Are you saying that December 25 was once the shortest day of the year for Christians, but not for non-Christians and, in reality, it was not the shortest day of the year as measured by the length of daylight hours - except for Christians.

May I ask if there is such a thing a objective, verifiable truth in your theology, or is there simply one truth for Christians and another for non-Christians?

 

[bbbbbbb]

There are various things that comes from cultures that were pagan that are still done but within the Christmas celebration, for certain people.

That does not make Christian 'pagan' in any sense of the word.

So, let's say I am an African American and I decide that Kwanzaa is the proper Christian celebration for the season (although everyone knows that it was invented by an African American in the twentieth century) does that then make Kwanzaa a Christian celebration of Christmas?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Celebrated how?

I think you might find this link of some interest - Saturnalia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It probably does not say anything you know already but you might find it helpful,

 

[bbbbbbb]

For something undeniable, you certainly haven't actually stated what the 'pagan and secular origins' of Christmas are. Which is because there aren't any.

Various nonbiblical traditions have been incorporated into the celebration of the Feast of the Incarnation. Some traditions, such as having a young virgin parade around with a lighted crown of candles on her head remain relatively isolated to some cultures but others such as the Christmas tree have worked their way from specific cultures into the general, secular culture.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You are mistaken. December 25 was the darkest day of the year (the solstice) in the early centuries of Christianity. The Julian calendar moved the solstice back one day every 400 years due to a lack of precision. The issue was finally addressed in the 16th Century, and so the solstice now falls around December 21.

That being the case, to which I wholeheartedly agree, do you know why the Feast of the Incarnation was shifted to four days after the winter solstice at the time if, in fact, a key rationale for its celebration was to be on the shortest and darkest day of the year in the northern hemisphere?

Changing the date seems to rob of it of a meaning that some, such as yourself, hold to be essential to the celebration.

 

[RibI]

SpiritualAntiseptic?

 

[lionroar0]

I think you miss the point. Since I agree with bbbbbb for the most part, and think I see where he is coming from, I can respond with this: I am not against celebrating Christmas. As I have said before, I celebrate it every year. Our church has services every year to celebrate it. However, there is nothing that says that we have to celebrate it ON December 25th in order to be good, obedient Christians.

There's no problem celebrating the incarnation on another day as the EO celebrated on another day and there's no problem there.
However not the argument. From what I have been reading one should not celebrate the Incarnation on Dec 25th because, it has pagan undertones.

The elephant in the room is that the CC set those days a very long time ago and now it's just another way for anti-catholicism to rear it's evil head.

These ppl are saying that one should not celebrate Christmass on the Dec 25, because it has pagan undertones and Good Christians should not have anything to do with things that are pagan.

It's bigotry, it's discrimination and that's evil. That's the bottom line.

That's why it's a feeble minded argument. These ppl deserve our prayers for not knowing any better.

 

[lionroar0]

Of course, Jesus Christ, as the second person of the Trinity, has existed from eternity to eternity. The Bible, except in an esoteric sense, has not existed from eternity to eternity.

Various cultures had religious celebrations on December 25 prior to the Christian observance of the incarnation of Jesus Christ on that day.

And which cultures are those and would it be "wrong" to celebrate the incarnation on that day? I need clarification here, The Bible, except in an esoteric sense,....

 

[lionroar0]

Personal attack noted. Please note that I have never stated that " The whole Christmas the 25th is a pagan origin." I merely stated that aspects of the celebration do have undeniable pagan and secular origins. These are entirely unrelated to any Christian aspect of the celebration.

Would you care to provide the Christian origins of every aspect of the Christmas celebration? If so, I will draw up a list for our discussion.

The usual "American" arrogance. No wonder other countries don't like the good old USA. The presumption that because it's celebrated with specific cultural norms in the USA it must also be true for the rest of the world.

Christmass is celebrated according to the cultures of others.



In Peru, before we moved to the USA. We had a Christmass dinner and invited others to it. Then us kids went to sleep and woke up with toys at the foot of our bed. The adults did not buy presents for themselves or other adults. Only the kids got presents.

Later though we did put up a Christmass tree and went caroling, because the Americans were doing this, and if they are doing it then, we have to do it too.

 

[lionroar0]

That being the case, to which I wholeheartedly agree, do you know why the Feast of the Incarnation was shifted to four days after the winter solstice at the time if, in fact, a key rationale for its celebration was to be on the shortest and darkest day of the year in the northern hemisphere?

Changing the date seems to rob of it of a meaning that some, such as yourself, hold to be essential to the celebration.

I would say because the focus is on the celebrating the Incarnation. Not celebrating the winter solstice. The winter solstice is a symbol of the incarnation. It does not matter if the winter solstice is not on the 25th.

 

[bbbbbbb]

And which cultures are those and would it be "wrong" to celebrate the incarnation on that day? I need clarification here, The Bible, except in an esoteric sense,....

I wrote, "Various cultures had religious celebrations on December 25 prior to the Christian observance of the incarnation of Jesus Christ on that day." One culture that has been widely discussed here is that of the Roman Empire which celebrated Saturnalia on that day (actually during the entire week).

My point is that having a religious celebration on that day is hardly a Christian event. If some want to celebrate the incarnation on a day used by pagans for their celebration, so be it. The reality, I think, is that one would be hard pressed to find any day of the year on which there is not some form of religious significance. Even the RCC has designated every day of the calendar as some feast or saint's day.

Thus, if someone, such as Hammster, wants to celebrate it on another day he is no better nor worse than those who have chosen to celebrate it on December 25.

 

[bbbbbbb]

And which cultures are those and would it be "wrong" to celebrate the incarnation on that day? I need clarification here, The Bible, except in an esoteric sense,....

One might say that the Bible has existed from eternity to eternity because it, as the Word of God, is so closely associated with the Word of God Incarnate who has existed from eternity to eternity. However, the reality is that the Bible came into being in time as God revealed His Word to us.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The usual "American" arrogance. No wonder other countries don't like the good old USA. The presumption that because it's celebrated with specific cultural norms in the USA it must also be true for the rest of the world.

Christmass is celebrated according to the cultures of others.



In Peru, before we moved to the USA. We had a Christmass dinner and invited others to it. Then us kids went to sleep and woke up with toys at the foot of our bed. The adults did not buy presents for themselves or other adults. Only the kids got presents.

Later though we did put up a Christmass tree and went caroling, because the Americans were doing this, and if they are doing it then, we have to do it too.

Thank you for making my point, which is that there is no consistent Christian celebration for the Feast of the Incarnation. Every culture has introduced its own aspects into it, pagan or secular, right or wrong.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I would say because the focus is on the celebrating the Incarnation. Not celebrating the winter solstice. The winter solstice is a symbol of the incarnation. It does not matter if the winter solstice is not on the 25th.

It assuredly does not matter to me personally. However, it does matter to those who attach the meaning to the Feast of the Incarnation. For a non-Christian it becomes just another absurdity of Christendom - celebrating a holiday because of its relationship to the winter solstice, but not on the winter solstice. Would December 17 work as well for you? Or how about June 21 in the southern hemisphere? Oops, that would be the winter solstice there, so maybe we should do it on June 25, instead.