Christians of future prophecy

O

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No, I don't believe Jesus came in 70 AD. Jesus ascended, and as St. Peter says in Acts 3, "heaven must receive Him until the time for the restoration of all things", that's the Eschaton, the End, the Last Day, etc.

And unlike many Preterists I accept the usual date of authorship for St. John's Apocalypse, around 90-95 AD most likely during the reign of Domitian as Eusebius argues.

But I believe the Apocalypse is chiefly concerned about the events of John's period. It's not a series of predictions concerning the end of the world, but rather deals with the persecutions, trials, and sufferings of the Church under Roman oppression with the intent to preach the victory of Christ over and against all worldly power. The Beast of the Apocalypse isn't a future antichrist, but Roman imperial power; Babylon the Harlot is Rome itself, and the crimson beast she rides is the imperial power based in Rome. Thus the point of the text isn't to give us an "end times" chronology, but to proclaim the victory of God in Christ for the sake of His Church in all ages, consummated at the end when Christ comes in judgment and God makes all things new.

So I'm not much of a Futurist when it comes to the Apocalypse.

I also don't believe that the "last days" mentioned at various places, Acts 2, 2 Timothy, etc refers to some specific "end times" period, but rather the general scope of time between Christ's first advent--His death, resurrection and ascension--and His coming at the end of this age, on the last day, in judgment. Because Christ has come, God's Messiah has come, and He has overthrown the sin, death, hell, and the devil, this age is a dying one that will finally be put to ruin when He returns at the End. We are, therefore, living in the last days, but so were the Apostles, all Christians have been living in these last days, because the coming of the Messiah meant and means these are the final days.

So when it comes to the end of the world, I generally keep it sweet and simple, by confessing the Creeds: "He will come again to judge the living and the dead". For He shall come, the dead will rise, there will be Last Judgment, and then God shall make all things new, life everlasting in the World to Come.

Is there going to be an ultimate "end times" antichrist? I don't know. On the basis of Scripture I believe there have been many antichrists, and there will likely be many more before the End. Is there going to be a Tribulation? Sure, but there's always been Tribulation, it's not a uniquely future thing, it's been going on for two thousand years.

Where I believe lines are crossed is when instead of relying upon Scripture and looking to Scripture entire eschatological systems are developed either entirely out from whole cloth (e.g. Dispensationalism), or otherwise attempt to take current events, scramble them up in a big blender, and then yank out of context passages of Scripture to try and construct the whole thing like a puzzle.

Anyone who claims to have more knowledge than the Lord Jesus Himself, or His Apostles, or the Christian Church generally of the last two thousand years isn't to be believed. Period. It's somewhat that simple for me. And calling it "Bible prophecy" doesn't make it biblical or prophecy. So I find the entire business of "Bible prophecy" to be little more than a marketing campaign to sell books to gullible Christians who have been improperly catechized by their churches to buy books, tapes, and diagrams that aren't worth the paper and plastic they're printed or recorded on.

But "prophecy" is big business. And that is, as far as I'm concerned, all it is. Scripture, to be sure, does contain prophecy; but the difference between what Scripture contains and what "prophecy" peddlers offer is the difference between night and day. Biblical prophecy isn't about finding out X and Y events and trying to match them to de-contextualized bits and pieces of Scripture; but rather about the proclaimed and revealed truth of God for the people of God.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, as mentioned.. if you actually do believe that the scriptures you referenced pertain to the future coming of Christ.. and you also don't believe that Christ came in 70AD..

Then you're pretty much a futurist.

Sorry..

But you didn't actually want to be a preterist anyway.. ;)
 
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Shocker

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Well, as mentioned.. if you actually do believe that the scriptures you referenced pertain to the future coming of Christ.. and you also don't believe that Christ came in 70AD..

Then you're pretty much a futurist.

Sorry..

But you didn't actually want to be a preterist anyway.. ;)

Pretty soon, everyone will be a futurist..

Or as I like to say, a "Christian".
 
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parousia70

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Pretty soon, ...

We have no idea what you mean when you say "pretty soon". You could mean 2000+ years "pretty soon" or you could mean next week "pretty Soon"...

Since you are all over the map and have demonstrated no consistent use of the term, we have no way of knowing what you mean when you keep saying it..

everyone will be a futurist..
Don't you mean every one will be preterist?
I mean, even in your scenerio, all eschatology will be a "past event" eventually, right?
(My favorite fact about futurism actually...even futurists must admit that one day they will gleefully shout "it is past!"... Preterism is the end result of futurism.)

Or as I like to say, a "Christian".
In spite of your hopes and dreams to the contrary, Ones eschatology has nothing to do with their status as "Christian" or not.

Understanding and accepting the "correct" Eschatology is not at all salvific.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well, as mentioned.. if you actually do believe that the scriptures you referenced pertain to the future coming of Christ.. and you also don't believe that Christ came in 70AD..

Then you're pretty much a futurist.

Sorry..

But you didn't actually want to be a preterist anyway.. ;)

Historicists likewise believe Christ's coming is yet future, but they're neither Futurists nor Preterists.

It also seems like you're wanting to conflate Orthodox Preterism ("Partial Preterism") with the heretical Hyper-Preterism ("Full Preterism") even though the two are rather different animals, the former is firmly within the historic, orthodox Christian camp as laid out in the ancient Creeds and confessions of the Christian Church, the latter deny some of the very basics of orthodoxy, namely that Christ will come again at the consummation of this age and that there is a future, bodily resurrection of the dead.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Understanding and accepting the "correct" Eschatology is not at all salvific.

But there are specific eschatological elements that are inseparably linked to the essential confession of the Christian faith, laid out expressly for us in the Church's historic confession(s) of faith.

Such as what we read in the Apostles' Creed,

"Credo in ... Iesum Christum ... inde venturus est iudicare vivos et mortuos." - We believe in ... Jesus Christ ... He will come again to judge the living and the dead

and

"Credo in ... carnis resurrectionem, vitam aeternam." - We believe in ... the resurrection of flesh, life everlasting.

To that extent there are distinctly eschatological elements that are essential and fundamental to faith of the Church catholic, to Christianity, and Christianity's orthodox, right confession of who Christ is, what Christ has done, is doing, and will do that defines who we are as the people of God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Shocker

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We have no idea what you mean when you say "pretty soon". You could mean 2000+ years "pretty soon" or you could mean next week "pretty Soon"...

Since you are all over the map and have demonstrated no consistent use of the term, we have no way of knowing what you mean when you keep saying it..

Don't you mean every one will be preterist?
I mean, even in your scenerio, all eschatology will be a "past event" eventually, right?
(My favorite fact about futurism actually...even futurists must admit that one day they will gleefully shout "it is past!"... Preterism is the end result of futurism.)

In spite of your hopes and dreams to the contrary, Ones eschatology has nothing to do with their status as "Christian" or not.

Understanding and accepting the "correct" Eschatology is not at all salvific.

Its funny, I bring my own literary flare to this website, and now you guys are talking just like me, lol... Just an observation;)

Any who, I consider the Bible to be interpreted one way only, so if a man is coming with discernment that is counter to what I already know, he is not of the same spirit..

Talking to you is no different than when I witness to Mormons or JW's.. You guys all debate the same, throw verses out of context or just flat out argue until you get pushed into a corner with questions you cant answer.

For the record, I would go to my dog for scriptural understanding before I would acknowledge you, that's how offbase your doctrine is.

I expect if from your sect.
 
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parousia70

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The same way the second temple was called the "Temple of God".

So the Shekhinah Glory Cloud will come back and dwell in the third temple like it did in the 2nd?
 
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Shocker

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So the Shekhinah Glory Cloud will come back and dwell in the third temple like it did in the 2nd?

Can you show me when that applied to the second temple?

Correct me if Im wrong, but didn't God manifest in Christ?

Jesus Christ, who is God..
 
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O

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Historicists likewise believe Christ's coming is yet future, but they're neither Futurists nor Preterists.

It also seems like you're wanting to conflate Orthodox Preterism ("Partial Preterism") with the heretical Hyper-Preterism ("Full Preterism") even though the two are rather different animals, the former is firmly within the historic, orthodox Christian camp as laid out in the ancient Creeds and confessions of the Christian Church, the latter deny some of the very basics of orthodoxy, namely that Christ will come again at the consummation of this age and that there is a future, bodily resurrection of the dead.

-CryptoLutheran

The point is.. you can see past 70AD

More than a lot of people can see around here..
 
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Shocker

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The point is.. you can see past 70AD

More than a lot of people can see around here..

Just look at the rocketing popularity of the preterist safehouse thread lol.

"aint nobody got time fo dat".

In Christianity, witnesses are everything, and we got em in droves...

Nothing to sweat.

There is more post trib believers than preterists..
 
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ebedmelech

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Romans 11 is a prophecy that was written nearly 2000 years ago..

If you can accept this prophecy as unfulfilled, which clearly you do, then I don't understand why you would think the rest of the prophecy given that has yet to pass wouldn't also share that same gap in time..
The depends on what prophecy you're referring to.
I think that if a prophecy has come to pass, there will be no question among those who are saved.
Why would you think that knowing there are genuine Christians who believe differently based on what their taught? Their salvation isn't the issue the issue is how they're taught by their pastors/teachers.
Good thing prophetic discernment isn't a salvific prerequisite.
Which is why salvation is a matter apart from eschatology. Jesus knows in our imperfect state, we won't all agree.

We see the apostle Paul writing 1 & 2 Corinthians to correct a church, Galatians is written to combat erroneous teaching the church had fallen into...and we see the same thing today.

This then, is the struggle we endure, to understand God's written word properly.
 
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NannaNae

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so I have to ask the rules here. this preterists and such and such .

if you don't believe the temple has to be built what am I ? :p I don't have a clue what I "am" or my theoryology is or isn't , but maybe a crazy old lady!
so I'm kind of Mid trib... but really only believe in the last 3 1/2 not all 7 at the end of the age or the last days are just 3 1/2 .
and I don't believe in a temple built here by that time. not that there won't be a temple but I think it comes here.
I also believe that all God prophesies had to have a WAS and IS in that HIS spirit will doubly confirm THE WILL BE version of the same prophesy.

so that pretty much puts me in a camp where I think everyone is right and everyone is wrong.........:p

so now what I am ? ,,,, besides some one saying "confused" but I already knew that ...:p
 
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Shocker

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The depends on what prophecy you're referring to.

Why would you think that knowing there are genuine Christians who believe differently based on what their taught? Their salvation isn't the issue the issue is how they're taught by their pastors/teachers.

Which is why salvation is a matter apart from eschatology. Jesus knows in our imperfect state, we won't all agree.

We see the apostle Paul writing 1 & 2 Corinthians to correct a church, Galatians is written to combat erroneous teaching the church had fallen into...and we see the same thing today.

This then, is the struggle we endure, to understand God's written word properly.

Eschatology is the study of the Bible.

No matter how you look at it. Call it end times, call it what you want.

Its a playbook with all the events lined out, start to finish... Gen-Rev..

You keep saying we wont agree, but I don't believe that your spirit is clashing with mine because they the same, that's not possible.

You only understand and know things because God puts them there, otherwise, its a very different god giving you that brain candy..
 
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ebedmelech

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Eschatology is the study of the Bible.

No matter how you look at it. Call it end times, call it what you want.
The "end times" study of the bible is eschatology (last things)
Its a playbook with all the events lined out, start to finish... Gen-Rev..
There are thing we don't know, that require us to simply trust the Lord.
You keep saying we wont agree, but I don't believe that your spirit is clashing with mine because they the same, that's not possible.

You only understand and know things because God puts them there, otherwise, its a very different god giving you that brain candy..
Well, the point here is not "clashing" necessarily. Christians clash when they get angry or aggravated that another doesn't agree with them. That's a wrong spirit to have. Jesus is still the focus...it's when we let the flesh get the better of us, that we can't disagree in a right spirit.
 
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Shocker

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The "end times" study of the bible is eschatology (last things)

There are thing we don't know, that require us to simply trust the Lord.

Well, the point here is not "clashing" necessarily. Christians clash when they get angry or aggravated that another doesn't agree with them. That's a wrong spirit to have. Jesus is still the focus...it's when we let the flesh get the better of us, that we can't disagree in a right spirit.

There are things we don't know, like what heaven looks like, or will our pets go to heaven.

Then, there are things we do know, like how to know when Christ is coming, what events he gave us to watch for and how to prepare ourselves.


If you think Christ is just going to swoop in one day out of the blue, you either believe in the rapture, or you don't believe in the Bible.

Because it gets a whole lot worse before he comes..
 
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parousia70

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Can you show me when that applied to the second temple?

Correct me if Im wrong, but didn't God manifest in Christ?

Jesus Christ, who is God..


Jesus Christ, who is God, manifest in the incarnation, coexisted with the 2nd temple building in Jerusalem, which was also indwelt by God at the same time (Matthew 23:21).

Can you show me where this supposed 3rd stone temple of yours, built by Christ rejectors, will be likewise indwelt by God, making it rightfully "the temple of God"?
 
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NannaNae

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There are things we don't know, like what heaven looks like, or will our pets go to heaven.

Then, there are things we do know, like how to know when Christ is coming, what events he gave us to watch for and how to prepare ourselves.


If you think Christ is just going to swoop in one day out of the blue, you either believe in the rapture, or you don't believe in the Bible.

Because it gets a whole lot worse before he comes..
hum well shocker that just might be who you are in the scheme of things.
It is the time of "Jacobs troubles" remember? what if you are a Jacob and he is not one? pray about that !
 
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parousia70

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so that pretty much puts me in a camp where I think everyone is right and everyone is wrong.........:p

so now what I am ? ,,,, besides some one saying "confused" but I already knew that ...:p


I'd say that makes you "pan-trib"

as in, "it will all pan-out" in the end :cool:
 
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