Christians beware

peterlindner

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you know when I get in that place.. I like to read and re read..

1Ki 19:14
And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.

and God responds with .....
1Ki 19:18
Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

and to think Elijah didn't know even one of them I find amazing ! don't you ?


nope! your never the only one left in all the world honey!

It was Noah and the 7 on board the ark. God was speaking with Noah.
Elijah and his 7,000. God was speaking with Elijah.
God was speaking with Abraham.
Then he called Moses.
Mathew 25:14 "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country..."
John 21... Peter jumped out of the boat.
Relationship with God is an individual experience; not the "we" experience that the church interprets out of Mathew 25 1-13.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Interesting.. Its almost as if Christ gave us the prophecy, and then, according to you, instructed us to in fact, "not know" when these things would come to pass.

"No one knows the day or hour" kind of means "No one knows the day or hour." So, yes, Jesus doesn't expect us to be able to make predictions or set dates about when He is going to come.

In fact, I suppose we aren't even to regard prophecy as anything other than words on a page..

I don't know how you reached that conclusion.

I would direct you to the 10 virgins parable. (Mat 25)

Where none of the ten virgins knew when the Bridegroom would come, and so they were supposed to be watchful because He could come at any time, but five were lazy and didn't bring enough oil for their lamps?

Yeah, the whole reason the virgins needed to be watchful was because they didn't know when the Bridegroom would come; which is precisely why we need to vigilant.

More importantly, Id like to know how the disciples, who would be long dead before these things were to come to pass, were supposed to know the times and seasons..

They didn't.

You see, in this verse, I agree with Christ, but then I also understand why he said it to them..

Im curious.. Do you?

Why He told them that it's not theirs to know the times and seasons, and why He told them no one knows the day or the hour?

Presumably because it's not theirs to know the times and seasons and because no one knows the day or the hour.

What is theirs is to be watchful, vigilant, on guard, believing and hoping in He who overcame sin, death, hell, and the devil; is now seated at the right hand of the Father in glory, who will come again on the final day as judge of the quick and the dead. And theirs is also ours.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ebedmelech

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He shortened the days or there would be no flesh saved ... they're not deceved of their own ability ... it's because God shortened the days ... that is how bad it will be ...
As I view that passage, it applied to the tribulation Jesus spoke of that would come upon Jerusalem in 70 AD...so I won't labor this point because it's obvious you hold it to be a future occurrence. Christians must endure tribulation period.
well, yes, that was my point ... we are warned to be on guard ... because you said the saints couldn't be deceived ...
My point is saints will not be deceived because Jesus said in John 6:37-39:
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

We have to look at all these passages understanding. The scriptures you're pointing to are to encourage us to be steadfast. As Christians we are certainly able to be deceived...however I contend that our Lord will not allow us to continue in deception.
yes ... He won't leave us or forsake us ... but He did NOT say we wouldn't leave, nor forsake Him ... and many will ... not the elect ... it was for their sake He shortened the days ... but many other Christians will be ...
Then I would point you to 1 John 2:19:
19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.
 
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NannaNae

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It was Noah and the 7 on board the ark. God was speaking with Noah.
Elijah and his 7,000. God was speaking with Elijah.
God was speaking with Abraham.
Then he called Moses.
Mathew 25:14 "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country..."
John 21... Peter jumped out of the boat.
Relationship with God is an individual experience; not the "we" experience that the church interprets out of Mathew 25 1-13.
I will agree with "relationship with God is on a individual experience" for the most part.. but the 7 churches of REV were ,is ,will be and they all have themes. weaknesses and strengths .and I suspect they all have their own end time places to fulfill .
but I have to say there is 5000000000 million other Moses and Abraham's or JONAH's ;) .... and we all have to do the parts he sets up for us to so . share in the suffering of his body, build, pasture, feed, fervently mourn, carry death/sin etc .. he needs us to do right-ously what he is doing , and to take our place in the wall .

what it sounds like you were saying before sounded very wrong..

so maybe it is a communication style issue
.. maybe type less abbreviated and a little less esoteric in the expressions or your concepts ? so maybe over explain it ,,,,maybe let's pretend maybe I'm slow( because I do have days). so now you have to explain yourself clearer OK ? do we got a deal ? ;)
 
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Shocker

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"No one knows the day or hour" kind of means "No one knows the day or hour." So, yes, Jesus doesn't expect us to be able to make predictions or set dates about when He is going to come.



I don't know how you reached that conclusion.



Where none of the ten virgins knew when the Bridegroom would come, and so they were supposed to be watchful because He could come at any time, but five were lazy and didn't bring enough oil for their lamps?

Yeah, the whole reason the virgins needed to be watchful was because they didn't know when the Bridegroom would come; which is precisely why we need to vigilant.



They didn't.



Why He told them that it's not theirs to know the times and seasons, and why He told them no one knows the day or the hour?

Presumably because it's not theirs to know the times and seasons and because no one knows the day or the hour.

What is theirs is to be watchful, vigilant, on guard, believing and hoping in He who overcame sin, death, hell, and the devil; is now seated at the right hand of the Father in glory, who will come again on the final day as judge of the quick and the dead. And theirs is also ours.

-CryptoLutheran

The ten virgins would have needed their lamps filled with oil, or they wouldn't know how to find the groom when he came calling....

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Its funny, you believe that Christ returns, but you don't believe in the prophecy that immediately precedes it...

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The ten virgins would have needed their lamps filled with oil, or they wouldn't know how to find the groom when he came calling....

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Its funny, you believe that Christ returns, but you don't believe in the prophecy that immediately precedes it...

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

And yet that still doesn't change the fact that we don't know when Jesus is going to come back until it happens.

And again, I simply do not believe that someone is going to magically and suddenly know something more than Jesus Himself, or more than the whole of twenty centuries of Christendom.

My faith is dependent upon Christ's Word given to the Apostles, written in Holy Scripture and confessed through the ages in and by the Christian Church; and I don't feel it fruitful to be distracted by idle speculations and aimless prediction. Instead it is better to have both feet firmly planted upon the solid foundation of God's word.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Notrash

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Revelation 15:3 ... preperation for the seven vials ... And

much to be learned from the song of Moses ...

Indeed, I agree. Note the times and wasys Paul alluded to this or Is 59; an overlapping chapter.

Deut 32 was to come after the return from captivity (not dispersion) and after circumcision of the heart mentioned in ch 30. It would also come through the new prophet mentioned in deut 18 which Jesus affirms to be in john 5:46,47 abd which Peter affirms in acts 3 and Stephen in acts 7. The circumcision of and new heart is the same new covt as in jer 31 and ez 36 and elsewhere. It's the GOOD NEWS exemplified and incarnated by God/Christ.

Daniel in ch 9 affirms that the babylonian captivity which he was then in was the curse of the law of moses of deut 28,29. Thus, after his convessiin in prayer of dan 9, satisfying the call to rememberence stated in deut 30:1-5, they were given a 490 yr prophecy from the time of the return from that captivity till the messiah and circumcision of the heart between deut 30:1-5 & 6-14. Christ affirmed himself as messiah to the woman at the well shortly after his baptizm and 3 1/2 yrs before being cut off, thus reaffurming the beginning of the 70th week at his teaching (new words) and baptizm when the voice from heaven was heard again as foretold in deut 18.

Paul furthermore affirms deut 30:5-15 to be fulfilled in the first century coming of Jesus in Rom 10:5-8.

In deut 32 it says that those who hsted him (called his enemies) would provoke his sons and daughters and that for this cause he would take vengeance upon the continual persecutors of his believers and this way. In deut 32:42 he says that he would accomplish his sword THROUGH THE MINDS OF THE LEADERS OF THE ENEMY (not mine enemies, though there may be little difference in principle) Furthermore, Jesus and john the baptist fefer to the pharisaic group as a brood or generation of vipers, which idea is also mentioned in deut 32 AND Is 59. Who was Israel of the mosaic covt's enemy at that time? THE Romans of the international community. Thus affirming Jesus's coming and vengeance through the Romans.

Now to me it seems as though the exacting of the disbelievers lives (of deut 18:15-18) would only come to that generation of the latter end (deut 31:29, 32:20,29) of the mosaic covt when and after the everlasting (new) covt was established in humanities history by lifes creator; and with a few other prophecies (double honour in Is 61; ez 38:8, etc) would also allow for a second reinforcing judgement in the same general time period (132-135; IMO)

The inlusion of the mention of the song of moses in rev 15:3 is actually one of the prooving points that the letter of "The ReVEALING" applied to first century judea of the end of the mosaic covt. The saints of the faith and freedom of the GOOD lifemaker incarnate were being persecuted and killed, and yet in standing for the truth of his coming and new message, they were to defer vengeance unto God and not revert to hatred (Rom 12:19; DEUT 32:35) against theose who were then their enemies (rom 11:28) but who might yet come to believe and leave the house of moses's law, some through being provoked by jealousy (rom 10:19; deut 32:21) of the fullness of joy , love and other gifts from among those believers in the nations (rom 11:25)




...
 
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Notrash

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And yet that still doesn't change the fact that we don't know when Jesus is going to come back until it happens.
And again, I simply do not believe that someone is going to magically and suddenly know something more than Jesus Himself, or more than the whole of twenty centuries of Christendom.
My faith is dependent upon Christ's Word given to the Apostles, written in Holy Scripture and confessed through the ages in and by the Christian Church; and I don't feel it fruitful to be distracted by idle speculations and aimless prediction. Instead it is better to have both feet firmly planted upon the solid foundation of God's word.
-CryptoLutheran


Could you be missing a preposition that changes everything? Jesus didn't say no man knows the day nor hour, but "OF" that day and hour, no man knows. I believe he's alluding to the proving of the everlasting covt and the truth of the creatir come in Jesus by the rolling back of the heavens of the old covt as referred to in zec 12 & 14::7-9.

Did he not say "OF" that day???

He's saying that of the environment if that day, no one could yet comprehend and understand. The peace and POWER of the covt of peace would be established for all to see.

Concerning no man knowing the times and seasons, he didn't say that. HE said that it wasn't for (all) of his disciples to EXPERIENCE (different greek word; different meaning) the times and seas@ons (feasts and festivals) fixed through the 40 yrs if the mosaic covt as a pattern to be fulfilled by the new covt peoples from 30-70 AD. None of the apostes but John (john 21:18-23) lived through the war against the saints (dan7) But they would (ALL) experience the fulfilling of the season/time of pe.tecost and the distribution of the message to persons of other tounges who had come into jerusalem for the festival.



.
 
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NannaNae

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"No one knows the day or hour" kind of means "No one knows the day or hour." So, yes, Jesus doesn't expect us to be able to make predictions or set dates about when He is going to come.



I don't know how you reached that conclusion.



Where none of the ten virgins knew when the Bridegroom would come, and so they were supposed to be watchful because He could come at any time, but five were lazy and didn't bring enough oil for their lamps?

Yeah, the whole reason the virgins needed to be watchful was because they didn't know when the Bridegroom would come; which is precisely why we need to vigilant.



They didn't.



Why He told them that it's not theirs to know the times and seasons, and why He told them no one knows the day or the hour?

Presumably because it's not theirs to know the times and seasons and because no one knows the day or the hour.

What is theirs is to be watchful, vigilant, on guard, believing and hoping in He who overcame sin, death, hell, and the devil; is now seated at the right hand of the Father in glory, who will come again on the final day as judge of the quick and the dead. And theirs is also ours.

-CryptoLutheran
but "the day and the hour" a phrase-ology used during ,,,,,,feast of trumpets or before Yom Kippur , one of the feast when the trumpet is used to confuse and enemies/satan.. ( seems I forgot , been awhile) .. these phrases is also part of things of the Old testament Jesus clearly uses but " christianity " really doesn't understand at all or has never taught that I know of.

maybe we have been too busy decorating pine /evergreens trees to the sun God Tammuz maybe !
brought to us by non other than Constantine's pagan momma with her own concepts of history ! oh well..
so maybe we do know when " the day or the hour is " we just don't know it now.. or any more..;) and edited to say ( what if he is prophesying just how clueless we will be..)
 
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ViaCrucis

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Could you be missing a preposition that changes everything? Jesus didn't say no man knows the day nor hour, but "OF" that day and hour, no man knows. I believe he's alluding to the proving of the everlasting covt and the truth of the creatir come in Jesus by the rolling back of the heavens of the old covt as referred to in zec 12 & 14::7-9.

Did he not say "OF" that day???

He's saying that of the environment if that day, no one could yet comprehend and understand. The peace and POWER of the covt of peace would be established for all to see.

"Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης καὶ τῆς ὥρας" - "Moreover, concerning the day and the hour"

Peri (Περὶ): "about, concerning, on account of, because of, around, near"

I think it's rather clear that at this point Jesus is speaking of the "day and hour" about which He speaks of the future, the coming Parousia and Judgment; not a figurative, invisible parousia, but of that grand eschatological moment the same as what St. Paul speaks of in various places, such as in 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, etc.

So, no, I don't believe there's any reason to attach an invisible parousia to what happened in 70 AD; though the Lord does talk about that event in the Olivet Discourse.

The destruction of the Temple and City is not the same event as His coming in glory, the Parousia.

When the Playwright walks upon the stage, the play is over.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Shocker

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but "the day and the hour" a phrase-ology used during ,,,,,,feast of trumpets or before Yom Kippur , one of the feast when the trumpet is used to confuse and enemies/satan.. ( seems I forgot , been awhile) .. these phrases is also part of things of the Old testament Jesus clearly uses but " christianity " really doesn't understand at all or has never taught that I know of.

maybe we have been too busy decorating pine /evergreens trees to the sun God Tammuz maybe !
brought to us by non other than Constantine's pagan momma with her own concepts of history ! oh well..
so maybe we do know when " the day or the hour is " we just don't know it now.. or any more..;)

I doubt he has a clue about what you are talking about.;)
 
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ViaCrucis

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but "the day and the hour" a phrase-ology used during ,,,,,,feast of trumpets or before Yom Kippur , one of the feast when the trumpet is used to confuse and enemies/satan.. ( seems I forgot , been awhile) .. these phrases is also part of things of the Old testament Jesus clearly uses but " christianity " really doesn't understand at all or has never taught that I know of.

maybe we have been too busy decorating pine /evergreens trees to the sun God Tammuz maybe !
brought to us by non other than Constantine's pagan momma with her own concepts of history ! oh well..
so maybe we do know when " the day or the hour is " we just don't know it now.. or any more..;)

No. Just... just no.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I doubt he has a clue about what you are talking about.;)

Since apparently we are now entertaining wild fantasy fiction. Allow me to tell you the tale about a certain hobbit, a Jedi, and a vampire-slaying Abraham Lincoln.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Since apparently we are now entertaining wild fantasy fiction. Allow me to tell you the tale about a certain hobbit, a Jedi, and a vampire-slaying Abraham Lincoln.

-CryptoLutheran

What she was talking about is hidden in your Bible..

Clearly you missed the point.
 
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ViaCrucis

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What she was talking about is hidden in your Bible..

Clearly you missed the point.

It was unfortunately mixed in together with nonsense about Tammuz trees and Helen being a pagan insinuating a corruption of some primitive "pure" Christianity; which seemed to be a basis for suggesting that we've lost something and that's why we don't know it now.

I have no intention of entertaining an obvious false premise in the first place, or treating God's word like an augur does his birds.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Notrash

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"Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης καὶ τῆς ὥρας" - "Moreover, concerning the day and the hour"

Peri (Περὶ): "about, concerning, on account of, because of, around, near"

I think it's rather clear that at this point Jesus is speaking of the "day and hour" about which He speaks of the future, the coming Parousia and Judgment; not a figurative, invisible parousia, but of that grand eschatological moment the same as what St. Paul speaks of in various places, such as in 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, etc.

So, no, I don't believe there's any reason to attach an invisible parousia to what happened in 70 AD; though the Lord does talk about that event in the Olivet Discourse.

The destruction of the Temple and City is not the same event as His coming in glory, the Parousia.

When the Playwright walks upon the stage, the play is over.

-CryptoLutheran
We'll disagree. OF, ABOUT, CONCERNING means of, about, concerning that day and time period in question; which as you agreed could be connected to the destruction of the temple and end of the masaic covt. It dousn't mean not knowing that DATE and HOUR. In fact Paul wrote to the thessalonians in 1 thess 5:4 that they were NOT in darkness as others but knew and understood the times and epochs and that it would notovertake THEM as a theif.
 
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