Christianity without Paul

Goatee

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How much of Christianity is Paul? Is the faith as we know it made up mostly of Paul and his teachings?

Where would we be without Paul?

I have wondered about Paul. He does seem to take up a large part of the NT in his writings etc. Did he have his own agenda? Was his teachings very different from those of Jesus?

I ask these questions because i am curious to know if others have asked these questions and what answers people give. I for one are very much inexperienced in Biblical matters but i am trying to learn more and more as time goes on.
 

Soyeong

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How much of Christianity is Paul? Is the faith as we know it made up mostly of Paul and his teachings?

Where would we be without Paul?

I have wondered about Paul. He does seem to take up a large part of the NT in his writings etc. Did he have his own agenda? Was his teachings very different from those of Jesus?

I ask these questions because i am curious to know if others have asked these questions and what answers people give. I for one are very much inexperienced in Biblical matters but i am trying to learn more and more as time goes on.

Paul quoted or alluded to OT Scriptures thousands of times to show that they support what he was saying and to show that he did not deviate from them and in Acts 17:11 the Bereans checked everything Paul said against OT Scriptures to make sure that he did not deviate from them. Furthermore, Amos 3:7 says that God does nothing that he has not first revealed to the prophets, so God has not deviated from what He has revealed to the prophets and Jesus did not deviate from the Father's will. Paul said he was the bondservant and apostle of Messiah (Romans 1:1), so he was not acting on his own agenda and he did not deviate from Messiah's will. Paul tried to clarify OT Scriptures, but he is difficult to understand, and through that difficulty many have sadly deviated from following OT Scriptures:

2 Peter 3:15-17 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.
 
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farout

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How much of Christianity is Paul? Is the faith as we know it made up mostly of Paul and his teachings?

Where would we be without Paul?

I have wondered about Paul. He does seem to take up a large part of the NT in his writings etc. Did he have his own agenda? Was his teachings very different from those of Jesus?

I ask these questions because i am curious to know if others have asked these questions and what answers people give. I for one are very much inexperienced in Biblical matters but i am trying to learn more and more as time goes on.


If you believe the Bible and the New Testament in 2 Timothy 3:16 there we read that ALL Scripture is Inspired by God. Personally I believe that each writer in the Bible the Holy Spirit directed those writers what to put down. So Paul was directed what to day he did not get to insert his agenda even if he had one There is no place where Paul differed from the teachings of Jesus.

Being a Catholic your church elevates the Apostles and honors them, Paul included. Being a Protestant I have a more high view of Scripture and literally believe Paul was even directed every word, not just a thought. I say this because if Paul was in any way not completely in agreement with Jesus in every single way, none of the New Testament Books written by him would have been allowed in the Bible.

I hope this helps. Keep reading the Bible.
 
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98cwitr

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Sophrosyne

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I tend to lean towards the thinking that Christianity would exist perhaps like Judaism does without Paul because Peter and the other apostles were not really actively evangelizing non Jews even though Peter did have a few outings with Gentiles he didn't feel a need to go outside of Israel to them and as far as we can see only Paul and his group went to the Gentiles in force. Paul fought the Jewish believers in Christ also to keep them from binding Gentiles to the Mosaic law which without Paul's intercession the council of Jerusalem would probably have never met and made the edict that made Christians not just another sect of Judaism... and to Jews who weren't believers in Christ they would be seen as heretics or at least outcasts and those gentiles would be on their own.

To put it simply I believe without Paul Christianity would probably have LESS adherents than there are Jews now perhaps even die out and there would be no ascertainable "Gospel of Grace" neither it may be considered gnostic to what would be considered "mainstream" Christianity without Paul's revealed words. I think that there would be no protestants or Catholics but rather some pseudo-Judaism type religion.
 
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Soyeong

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If you believe the Bible and the New Testament in 2 Timothy 3:16 there we read that ALL Scripture is Inspired by God. Personally I believe that each writer in the Bible the Holy Spirit directed those writers what to put down. So Paul was directed what to day he did not get to insert his agenda even if he had one There is no place where Paul differed from the teachings of Jesus.

Being a Catholic your church elevates the Apostles and honors them, Paul included. Being a Protestant I have a more high view of Scripture and literally believe Paul was even directed every word, not just a thought. I say this because if Paul was in any way not completely in agreement with Jesus in every single way, none of the New Testament Books written by him would have been allowed in the Bible.

I hope this helps. Keep reading the Bible.

In 2 Timothy 3:15 Paul talks about the Scriptures that were available to Timothy from childhood, at which point the NT has not yet been written, which is not to say that the NT isn't inspired, just that Paul was only speaking about OT Scriptures in those verses.
 
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farout

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In 2 Timothy 3:15 Paul talks about the Scriptures that were available to Timothy from childhood, at which point the NT has not yet been written, which is not to say that the NT isn't inspired, just that Paul was only speaking about OT Scriptures in those verses.


2Peter 1:20,21. "First of all, you should know this: No prophecy of Scripture comes from one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the will of man; instead, men spoke from God as they were moved by the Holy spirit." HCSB
 
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Soyeong

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2Peter 1:20,21. "First of all, you should know this: No prophecy of Scripture comes from one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the will of man; instead, men spoke from God as they were moved by the Holy spirit." HCSB

How does that relate to what I said?
 
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JackRT

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I seriously wonder if Christianity would have survived at all without Paul. If it did, it would have been as a Judaic cult and would be virtually unrecognizable to Christians today.
 
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farout

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I seriously wonder if Christianity would have survived at all without Paul. If it did, it would have been as a Judaic cult and would be virtually unrecognizable to Christians today.


Very well said. I think there are some who would rather have salvation based on works as they are like mice in a wheel cage constantly running about doing the "lords Business" instead of tending to the home that is burning with no one to put out the fire.
First we must know the WORD so we can Live the Word. All to often loads are placed upon the weakest that have the heaviest burdens, that they can carry. By praying for others they are carrying the heaviest burden of all, because so few really have a burden for praying for others.
 
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Steeno7

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How much of Christianity is Paul? Is the faith as we know it made up mostly of Paul and his teachings?

Where would we be without Paul?

I have wondered about Paul. He does seem to take up a large part of the NT in his writings etc. Did he have his own agenda? Was his teachings very different from those of Jesus?

I ask these questions because i am curious to know if others have asked these questions and what answers people give. I for one are very much inexperienced in Biblical matters but i am trying to learn more and more as time goes on.

Pauls teachings are the teachings of Jesus. Galatians 1:12

And since the Pauline scriptures comprise the majority of the doctrinal books, Christianity would in sad shape without them.
 
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JackRT

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Pauls teachings are the teachings of Jesus.

I do wonder about that. Paul seems to know little of the life of Jesus. He actually contradicts the virgin birth and the betrayal of Judas. He cites less than 100 words of Jesus and these are on relatively trivial matters.
 
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Soyeong

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Clearly ALL Scripture is GOD ordained, God breathed. and God spoken.

I agree, but what we considered to be Scripture includes more than what the authors of the NT considered to be Scripture. It is doubtful that they thought they were writing Scripture, though within a few decades it was quickly regarded as such.
 
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Soyeong

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I do wonder about that. Paul seems to know little of the life of Jesus. He actually contradicts the virgin birth and the betrayal of Judas. He cites less than 100 words of Jesus and these are on relatively trivial matters.

The books of the Bible have a range of dates when people think they were written, but many consider Paul's letters to have been written before or around the same time as Gospels. Not mentioning the virgin birth or the betrayal of Judas is not the same as contradicting them.
 
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NonTheologian

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How much of Christianity is Paul? Is the faith as we know it made up mostly of Paul and his teachings?

Where would we be without Paul?

I have wondered about Paul. He does seem to take up a large part of the NT in his writings etc. Did he have his own agenda? Was his teachings very different from those of Jesus?

I ask these questions because i am curious to know if others have asked these questions and what answers people give. I for one are very much inexperienced in Biblical matters but i am trying to learn more and more as time goes on.


My opinion:

Christianity is Christ. Neither Paul nor any other New Testament writer brought more to Christianity than Christ already had - which was Himself. I think this is reflected in Paul's own statement, For when one says, "I belong to Paul," and another, "I belong to Apollos," are you not merely men? Neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth [1 Corinthians 4,7].

The most important New Testament writings, again in my opinion, are the Gospels. The other writings (except maybe Revelation) are expositions on the Gospel teachings by the Apostles or those who passed on what they heard from the Apostles (e.g. Mark). There is actually a large corpus of writings that are also edifying written by those who were taught by the Apostles - the so-called "Apostolic Fathers" - but these writings were not included in the canon because they were not of the Apostles themselves, but by those who followed after them (e.g. Ignatius, Polycarp, Barnabas). Then there are writings of those who were taught by those who were taught by the Apostles, etc. (i.e. other Church Fathers).

I don't believe it is correct to say that Paul's writings somehow complemented or completed what was taught by Christ. I think, rather, that he and the other New Testament writers provide interpretation of the Gospel teachings and not new revealed truths that were somehow "missed" in the Gospels.

My opinion, anyway.
 
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Steeno7

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I do wonder about that. Paul seems to know little of the life of Jesus. He actually contradicts the virgin birth and the betrayal of Judas. He cites less than 100 words of Jesus and these are on relatively trivial matters.

Galatians 1:12

Contradicts the virgin birth and the betrayel of Judas? Chapter and verse please.

You have the four gospels for background information, including the words of Jesus, in support of the doctrinal books.
 
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JackRT

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The books of the Bible have a range of dates when people think they were written, but many consider Paul's letters to have been written before or around the same time as Gospels.

Modern analytical bible scholars have intensively studied the text of those epistles that are generally attributed to Paul. By closely examining vocabulary, grammar and thought themes they are in agreement that the following epistles are genuinely from Paul. They are 1 Thessalonians, 1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, Philemon and Romans. Two more letters, Colossians and 2 Thessalonians are in dispute. Hebrews does not reflect Paul’s style and content whatsoever. Ephesians does not reflect the style of Paul but is very much Pauline in content and is thought to have been written by a close follower of Paul’s. The Pastoral letters (Titus, 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy) are attributed to Paul, but someone writing in Paul’s name wrote them around AD120, some 60 years after Paul’s death. Each letter uses vocabulary Paul is not known to have used; each has a different concept than Paul had of key matters such as faith; and each refers to Paul’s close friends Timothy and Titus in formal rather than friendly terms. They assume that Christian churches are governed by the kind of carefully organized authority structures that developed decades after Paul’s time. They are similar in style and in content and in the issues they raise. Scholars generally believe them to have been written by the same person. In addition two of Paul’s epistles are thought to be composed of what were originally several smaller letters. In particular Philippians is composed of three and 2 Corinthians is composed of six. Chapter 16 of Romans seems to be a later addition but genuinely by Paul.

Not mentioning the virgin birth or the betrayal of Judas is not the same as contradicting them.

I said contradiction.
 
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Kersh

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It all depends on one's view of Scripture. If you believe that the Bible is Scripture and that all Scripture is inspired by God, then the actual human authors matter little except to provide context. If you believe that Scripture is just human opinions, then I suppose it's all up for debate.
 
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JackRT

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Contradicts the virgin birth and the betrayal of Judas?

Some aspects of the story of Judas are contradictory. All four evangelists number Judas among "the twelve" apostles. Paul does not mention Judas explicitly but does say in 1 Corinthians 15:5 when speaking of the resurrection of Jesus "that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve." Whenever the phrase "the Twelve" is used in New Testament scripture the meaning is very clear that the reference is to the original twelve apostles of Jesus. Paul suggests here that Judas was a witness to the resurrection.

If we turn to the Gospels we quickly discover that in Mark, Luke and John the story of Judas ends with the betrayal and nothing further is mentioned of his fate. It is more explicit inMatthew 27:3-5 "When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 'I have sinned,' he said, 'for I have betrayed innocent blood.' 'What is that to us?' they replied. 'That's your responsibility.' So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself." This event clearly took place after Jesus had been seized but before the crucifixion and the resurrection. Acts 1:18 gives a more lurid description of the suicide of Judas but is not helpful in placing the time. The Acts account also provides further contradictions both in the manner of his death and what happened to the money.

Note also in Acts 1:24-26 that Matthias, the replacement for Judas, was elected after the ascension and just before Pentecost and thus could not be counted as among "the twelve" as a resurrection witness. There is a clear contradiction here. Either Paul is wrong or Matthew is wrong. Let me suggest to you that Paul knew nothing of any betrayal by Judas because the story was not developed until after Paul's death. The story itself is a midrashic construction based on a number of Old Testament references. The necessity to develop Judas as a reviled scapegoat was to deflect blame from the Romans to the Jews in order to assist Christian survival in a Roman world, which was already turning a very negative eye on the early Christians. What better way to do so than to choose a character bearing the very name of the nation of the Jews? This aspect of scriptural motivation could be developed much further.

Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luke 22:28 You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29 And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30 so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

In both citations above Jesus is addressing “the twelve” (including Judas) indicating to them that they (including Judas) would be with him in the kingdom. If Judas did indeed betray Jesus and is condemned then either Jesus was unaware of Judas’ impending betrayal or Jesus lied to Judas (and the other eleven). Everywhere a reference is made to ”the twelve” the roster includes Judas. But then we come to the following citation.

1 Corinthians 15:3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

Paul here is telling us that Judas was a witness to the resurrection. No mention is made of the betrayal or the “fact” that Judas committed suicide before the resurrection. It must also be pointed out that Mattias was not chosen to replace Judas until almost two months after the resurrection. There are some serious contradictions in these three sources. We do not have to invent ways to reconcile these problems when there is a single simple explanation --- the betrayal and suicide of Judas are a late developing interpretive mythology that Paul was unaware of.

One further point deserves to be mentioned and that is the historicity of the ‘thirty pieces of silver’. The fact of the matter is that pieces of silver were not used in the Temple and had not been for over 200 years. They were replaced by minted coins thereby avoiding the necessity of weighing on a balance to determine value.
 
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